Should TFM be rooted in Carnatic ragam to be good?

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Topic started by Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on Thu May 28 20:40:58 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

After looking at many discussion threads, I have come to the conclusion that many DFers feel that TFM should be rooted in Carnatic ragams. This argument shows up in old/new song discussions, certainly in IR vs. ARR discussions. Should TFM never leave the confines of the Carnatic ragam structure? Could there be a benefit in sidestepping the ragam structure and moving to chord progressions like Rock'n Roll, Jazz and other Western music? Let's have a healthy discussion without fan club hysteria, please.

Responses:

Old responses
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 13:56:11 EST 2000

Udhaya, I dont agree. The song has a "funky" bass line to it, but I think theres no jazz improvisations/free expressions in it. The chords structure of 7ths and "eudeleying" is a fine stamp of blues.
By the way which came first, blues or jazz?
From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Nov 7 14:15:02 EST 2000

Very educative !! Some body told me that one of the iruvar songs , 'sounds like big band jazz' (??)
From: seedan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Nov 7 14:15:18 EST 2000

The person who played the copied part is big time jazz guy in india. anywway swamiji you will not agree.
I feel this fighting to be more confusing than educative. Provocation does not (IMO) make one think. It is not a good way to educate someone - becoz I am a musician myself and I didnt learn music by someone telling me how it ought to be. It is self explored and I am still learning.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:20:55 EST 2000

seeda, thats my opinion and its difficult to agree. By the way, a jazz musician (by technique) knows to play blues. So u understand why the jazz guy in india played a blues song.
From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Nov 7 14:22:26 EST 2000

its okay.. I am listening and learning..swamiji should use 'brushes' more than his hand cymbals :-)
From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.206) on: Tue Nov 7 14:23:22 EST 2000

Swamiji,
Improvisation, though a key ingredient, isn't a must in jazz. If it is then how do you account for all the "standards" in jazz that the old and new adhere to? Jazz vocalists stick to a set tune, does that make it not jazz? Songs like "Making whoppee" were probably blues songs first.

I would say blues music is more stripped down and focuses on the vocal rendition rather than the elaborate interplay of instruments which is jazz's signature. Blues themes are predominantly about heartbreak, hence the term "blues". Blues music has pronounced bass where the guitars underscore the vocal storytelling. Another sign of blues is the use of harmonicas. When I hear B.B. King, or John Lee Hooker, that's what I call blues. On the whole, the distinction between jazz and blues is still nebulous.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:23:34 EST 2000

Yup kiru, that is indeed a big-band jazz.
Seeda, I always find this curious about u. Why do u always gain strength from "I know this musician , or I know that musician"??? What happened to your own ability as a musician???
From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.206) on: Tue Nov 7 14:25:34 EST 2000

Blues being vocally rooted, I would say blues came before jazz.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:27:09 EST 2000

Udhaya,
I found a site just for u. I would think it will be useful to you. Jazz is improvisation and improvisation is jazz. Please feel free to differ with me. I would like to learn too!! :)
http://www.jazzhistory.f2s.com/introframe.html
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:31:35 EST 2000

A small quote from that article
"An ability to play the blues has been a requisite of all jazz musicians, who on first meeting one another or when taking part in a jam session, will often use the blues framework for improving"
From: seedan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Nov 7 14:31:43 EST 2000

swamiji
if i say i know it, many people tell (bash) me as "self" proclamined musician and what not.., what to do? to avoid that i used those words,.

oru than addakAm than.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:34:05 EST 2000

Another quote from the same article for those that are lazy :)
"Jazz displayed a break from traditional music where a composer wrote an entire piece of music on paper, leaving the musicians to break their backs playing exactly what was written on the score. In a Jazz piece, however, the song is simply a starting point, or sort of a skeletal guide for the Jazz musicians to improvise around"
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:39:02 EST 2000

Seeda, dont take it personally. But I dont think it is necessary. I would like to share your view as much as you would want to. And very great musicians have all at one stage been curious just like you and me. What makes them great is they keep learning, and never stop. I believe Iam no different from them, and so would u.
From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Nov 7 14:45:16 EST 2000

swamiji ..nicea you joined yourself in good company :-).
Re: improvisation and jazz. Thats my understanding too. It was also pointed out as the commonality between indian music and jazz. But I thought there was improvisation in Hello Mister (??).
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Nov 7 14:46:23 EST 2000

swamji,
you are brand new here, so you are talking,
you have changed your name in just few months, imagine for a person being here for about 3 years now :))), you simply dont know newtfmpage.com of 1997,98's.

btw:yes i agree with you.,I learn every time i sit in front of the 6 octaves.
I have never told you that i have stopped learning :)

I still belive the opening part has jazz in it.
what to do?.

"the song is simply a starting point, or sort of a skeletal guide for the Jazz musicians to improvise around"

something close to carnatic music. do you agree.
From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.206) on: Tue Nov 7 14:49:48 EST 2000

Swamiji,
If learning is what you're after, you have found a kindred spirit in me. But I don't want to get into, "I'm right." "No.I'm right" kind of debates which I'm tired of.

If improvisation is the only key to define Jazz, then you and I differ in what jazz is, withstanding what that wonderful article says. Jazz may employ blues chords, but does blues ever employ jazz chords? Not likely. For a better understanding of the blues form, check out: http://thebluehighway.com/
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 14:51:01 EST 2000

Yes, Indian classical music has a lot of areas to improvise. Well, I dont know for a fact - but kadri gopalnath's sax playing received a lot of jazz musician's praise. Becoz we carnatic folks have nothing written, and we improvise upon one basic theme. I know this song "Alai paayudhe" been sung in so many interesting ways...it is the "soul" that wants to give expression to music.
Now, we might think if carnatic is jazz...well if you read through the article i posted, you would see jazz was influenced by many forms of music...and different rythm-melodic patters. So, in those lines, we can give a jazz feel to carnatic music as well.
Thats what i feel, once again - please differ with me.
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Nov 7 14:59:25 EST 2000

Carnatic music has lots of scope for improvisation.

basically take the song
"enthoro mahanu bhavu" pardon my telugu.

this song is raga "Sri" , each and every carnatic singer has thier own style of singing this song, this is one of the best example we can analyze.

listen to this song sung maharajapuram santhanam,
balamurali krishan in music india online,
you will see how they improvise on the song.

After this I will try to provide same kinds of stuff in jazz like same song played by different people.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 15:00:28 EST 2000

Chords has little to do with improvisation. Chords just lays a foundation for a melody to improvise upon. Play a major, then add seventh, then add ninth and then thirteenth and so on. Try singing a melody on top of that. You will find thats exactly what a jazz musician does. So my point is, there is definitely improvisations in jazz.
Now speaking of carnatic music - you people mustve definitely heard fusions of jazz and carnatic. For example, L.Subramaniam + Stephen Grapelli (a jazz musician) produced an album called "Conversations" (A must hear for musicians). If you listen to it u will find that L.Subramaniam and stephen himself keep improvising. It sounds like a jugal bandhi coz Jazz and Carnatic kind of "talk" to each other - I feel it is becoz they have something in common that is - Improvisation.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 15:05:45 EST 2000

Yup, speaking of carnatic music, I love thyagaraja's songs becoz theres many variations of one raga. Seems like he has tried so many possibilities just by singing about rama.
BTW fan, have tried backing it with chords? I think I will try doing that soon.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 15:14:57 EST 2000

Udhaya,
I have been reading the article u posted. It says "Jazz instrumentalists frequently use the chord progression of the twelve-bar blues as a basis for extended improvisations. The twelve or sixteen bar pattern is repeated while new melodies are improvised over it by the soloists" and thats exactly what I have been saying so far.
Hello mister ethir katchi had no solo instument/vocalist that even spent some time improvising. And the chord structure is D7 (with some additional notes) and G7 (again with additional notes)....typical BLUES!!!
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Nov 7 15:53:55 EST 2000

swamiji, i have done arragements for 2 songs, entharo and ena thavam seidanai, check with VK, he may have the tracks, or i will search my hard drive. best one i enjoyed is entharo, it is so interesting, we can do r&b or western classical etc for this song. I used it for a fashion show in chennai. It is a Wonderful composition, also, since this song has been improvised and sung by many many musicians till date, scores we have today might not be 100% the same score what thayagraja composed. but I am sure the bass melody still remains the same. swami oru advice, Drop the blues vs jazz, lets go ahead.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 16:27:12 EST 2000

Yeah fan, it is indeed a very good song. I will ask VK if he still has it. And yeah, I need to forget the jazz blues stuff...lets go ahead.
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 16:42:24 EST 2000

And BTW coming back to the thread's topic - "good" is a very subjective term. What I feel we need to do is, bring out elements of carnatic music and keep exploring possibilities. And one way to reach public is through TFM.
One example that comes to me is Maragathamanis "thathithom" in azhagan. Iam not sure how many or what raagams are there (fan can u tell us?)...but it is a gem of a song.
Lets see...a particular style is employed in a song - for a particular purpose. For example ilayaraja used Country style "banjoing" in punnagai mannan (and many other movies) when he wanted to show the clown...why do we think he used that? Any clues?
From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Nov 7 16:47:58 EST 2000

swamiji, that was a good song, but maragatha mani
flicked the last part of the song from MJ's liberian girl (alubum:Bad).
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 16:51:31 EST 2000

Wow!! I never noticed that! Yeah he has flicked from lots of other songs too...but i think he is an MD with good taste unlike deva. his melodies are good...
From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Tue Nov 7 17:05:29 EST 2000

ok then folks...keep learning. Bye bye...
From: RameshG (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Mon Nov 13 18:44:08 EST 2000

For those interested in use of carnatic ragas in film songs, you might find this site interesting if you have not been there.

www.charangi.com
From: PUSPANATHAN (@ ) on: Wed Dec 27 07:55:40 EST 2000

hi how r u

rythm ragam sponser.i like to see thi program.
From: purv (@ ) on: Fri Nov 21 16:40:51 EST 2003

Should TFM be rooted in Carnatic raagas to be good?

IMHO, yes. Personally, I like to make sure all my melodies are based on a Carnatic raaga. Makes my job simpler.

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