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Is musical appreciation dependent on knowledge?

Topic started by Raghav Kaushik (@ nova13.cs.wisc.edu) on Wed Oct 7 14:58:26 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I have read several threads and formed this opinion: It seems to be assumed in general that a better musical knowledge implies a better appreciation of music. This is especially assumed by people who are NOT musically very knowledgeable. I disagree with this. IMO, if one is a discerning enough listener, one can appreciate music as well as any other person, however knowledgeable he/she may be. This is so because enjoyment and appreciation entail listening abilities which are quite independent(IMO) of knowledge.

Of course, this is my view point - that of a person who is not well versed in music. Hence, I would like this to be discussed.

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Responses:

• From: Srinath (@ gate3.ca.us.ibm.com) on: Wed Oct 7 15:03:12 EDT 1998
  
  Kaushik:
  Let me put it this way: If you are musically knowledgeable, you will be able to express your appreciation better.
  
  
• From: PK (@ node1.allegiance.net) on: Wed Oct 7 15:08:14 EDT 1998
  
  Raghav,
  I sail in the same boat as you do. Enakku verum keLvi gyanam mattum thaan undu. But, I still enjoy all these melodies churned out by all our great MDs, whether it is in TFM or HFM or any language. A melodious song makes a lot of sense to me than the MD or the language. But IMHO, to be able to understand all the nitty gritties behind the song and music composition etc. the knowledge of ragaas etc is surely desirable.
  
  I agree with you in tha it is a very common (mis)conception that a better musical knowledge implies better appreciation. I have known a lot of people who can aomment better on a song than someone with all the available knowledge.
  
  When you are not very knowledgeable about the subject, there are a lot of chances that you may make mistakes in the implications, but in IMHO, it is not an essential requirement.
  
  
• From: PK (@ node1.allegiance.net) on: Wed Oct 7 15:09:20 EDT 1998
  
  Sorry!!! typos galore
  
  
• From: d.srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Wed Oct 7 15:26:52 EDT 1998
  
  It is better to be without any music knowledge. we can enjoy everything. Everything sounds good. More the knowledge more we find faults, At times I get irritated with myself to know music as I refer automatically to a old song from a new score and criticize the composer, unable to enjoy the song. (My wife will always ask me to keep quite if we go to see movies in theater, I even commented on Titanic as this song sounded to me like
  Vealai pura ondru.
  At times Rumba padhuthuven.
  
  D.Srikanth
  
  
• From: PK (@ node1.allegiance.net) on: Wed Oct 7 16:10:51 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: Neengala ippadi sollareenga. enga appa eppovum solluvaru "katrathu kai mann alavu, kallathathu ulagalavu". aanaal, intha vishayathula neenga sollaratha paatha "katrathu thaan ulagalavu" pola irukke. athukku mela kathunda romba thollaiya!!!
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Wed Oct 7 16:53:34 EDT 1998
  
  Hi Srikanth
  
  What you said is applicable not only to music but to most walks of life. Scientific knowledge of the moon that it is a lifeless cold desert sure kills all the romantic attributes of the poets' moon.
  
  One interesting quote from Tagore comes to my mind. He said something like--Knowledge is a double edged knife without a handle. It is bound to hurt the same hand that uses it.
  
  Anyway I am going to put up an interesting discussion between Rabindranath Tagore and Albert Einstein about music as a new topic. I encourage everybodys participation since it talks about things that interests us all
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ nova13.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Oct 7 17:13:50 EDT 1998
  
  Srikanth: your example puzzles me. You said you found similarities between 2 songs - I think it was NOT because you have good knowledge but merely because you are a good listener.
  
  I would agree with Srinath here: knowledge helps in expression of ideas, not in arriving at ideas.
  
  
• From: balaji (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Oct 7 20:11:01 EDT 1998
  
  appreciation has different levels and the levels vary as the knowledge grows. but , it is not correct to say that appreciation also improves as knowledge improves. a person who is knowledgeble might take a song and comment on its use of a raagam, or try to predict its "bar length" and other stuff that we read in the various threads. their view of appreciation will be to comment on the technicalities used by a MD etc. From a layman point of view, "how the song sounds" will be very important. But one cannot say that with increase in knowledge, one loses sight of a layman's perspective . the perfect difference between "knowledgeble appreciation" and "layman's appreciation" can be found in the field of carnatic music. people who have captured the imagination of the listeners who are knowledgeble in carnatic, are not the ones who remain in the top in the industry. people like KJY who have been criticised by suppudu and others are at the helm because of their popularity with the laymen. a good example will be what happened in music academy last december. the evening concert featured rajam iyer , who is critically well acclaimed , and the night concert featured a more popular person. there were barely 30 people or so for rajam iyer's concert and then for the next concert , the academy became full. i for one definitely feel that appreciation for music is something very personal and comes right from the heart, not from the mind.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Wed Oct 7 20:40:15 EDT 1998
  
  Balaji: I am not clear as to your meaning. As far as your example goes, my take is this: the people present for Rajam Iyer's concert were good LISTENERS, independent of musical knowledge. Why, since you have quoted this example, you must yourself have been present there which in itself supports my point. You were there because of your listening ability, not because of your knowledge, right?
  
  
• From: balaji (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Oct 7 21:08:52 EDT 1998
  
  no raghav, people who were there, were able to appreciate rajam iyer because of their knowledge. there were no laymen (of my type, who will swoon on hearing unnikrishnan or sudha raghunathan). the listening ability is all pervasive , but selection of what we like and what we appreciate is quite dependent on knowledge. appreciation remains, but what changes is WHAT we appreciate.
  but as i said before, this is not a strict guideline. it is not true that knowledgable people lose layman's perspective.
  
  
• From: Srinivas (@ scproxy3.sc.intel.com) on: Wed Oct 7 21:24:43 EDT 1998
  
  I am inclined to agree with Balaji's perceptions.
  The layman is concerned with the kind of eefect that the music is going to have. So, his perception largely hinges on his feelings. OTOH, a specialist may look for technical intricacies. That may be very well a valid reason for him to attend a concert. However, as Balaji says it is not necessary that a specialist looses the layman's perspective. The perfect example is Maestro himself. Though he uses the various W.C techniques like counterpointing, harmonies, ultimately all of us are able to relate to the music. We know that the music has an electric effect. The technically savvy like Srikanth can delve deeper and gain insight into what it is that makes the music sound like it does. This kind of analysis IMO is indispensable iff one wants to be a composer.
  However lack of technical knowledge does not prevent a loyt of us in appreciating the finer aspects and getting at the intended meaning.
  However one requirement I feel that is indispensable for music appreciation is a good "attention span". The reason is that a lot of IR songs need to be heard atleast 3 times (for me) to appreciate the full effect of the tune, interludes + harmony.
  
  
  
• From: balaji (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Oct 7 21:40:28 EDT 1998
  
  a main question arises here , as to what do people appreciate?? given a song, i cannot appreciate it fully without understanding in what context it fits in. most of the carnatic songs are appreciate because they fit in the appropriate context. OTOH, i could not appreciate ARR's songs in rural themes fully as i found that the songs didn't fit into the context. similarly in minsaara kanavu also. other places of appreciation can be,
  - how the tune gets the mood of the lyrics out
  - how the singers will suit the actors(otherwise it will end up like udit narayan for rajini in muthu)
  - what emotions the song evokes
  - the usage of instruments
  - other technical details like the usage of raagams etc
  
  
• From: bull (@ horus.erlm.siemens.de) on: Thu Oct 8 01:13:53 EDT 1998
  
  Wow! Almost all ideas expressed so far in this thread are there in a song from the film idhu namma aaLu!!!
  
  The song goes :sangIdham paada nyaanam uLLavargaL vENdum
  
  
• From: UV (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Thu Oct 8 03:25:50 EDT 1998
  
  but the song concludes this way...
  sangeetham pAda kElvi gnAname pOdhum
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ sf-dnpqh-042.compuserve.net) on: Thu Oct 8 03:57:24 EDT 1998
  
  I will just re-iterate what I stated in one of earlier postings in the "IR's dabba songs" thread. For total appreciation of the overall purport of a song, accumulated knowledge is certainly a hinderance. You might be able to write a thesis on the song, but the purpose of the song is destroyed, it is like preparing a documentation for your software. To be concise, what is desirable is less of intellect and more of heart. I do have some knowledge of raagas and the rest of the paraphernalia, but I do strip my mind of all this when I listen to a song. Once, I was listening to KVM's immortal number "Malargal nanainthana paniyaale" from Idhaya Kamalam and was getting totally taken in by the mood and the melody, when one of my friends remarked that a "Nishadam" had been "illegally" introduced in one of the interludes and this according to him was a sacrilege because the song was set to Mohanam which does not have a "Ni". This was a case of knowledge breeding insensitivity and prejudice.
  
  Like Srinath has stated, technical knowledge could help in communicating and giving an expression to your thoughts.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ ) on: Tue May 18 22:16:58 EDT 1999
  
  I'm reviving this thread due to nostalgia for threads that discuss music and listening in general.
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ nas-30-197.la.navinet.net) on: Tue May 18 23:50:28 EDT 1999
  
  Ignorance is bliss! As pointed out earlier being technically knowledgeable not only lets you express better, it also lets you find minor flaws which stand in the way of enjoying the music. Being technically naive, I focus mainly on the lyrics, the context and the melody. For me TFM, without lyrics doesn't exist. A pertinent example would be Bharathiyar songs. Take "Nallothor Veenai Seiythen" - a song utilized by various MDs set to different tunes. I have been able to appreciate everyone of those tunes without knowing the technical details. Just as beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, good TFM is in the ears of the avid listener - with or without technical knowledge.
  
  
• From: NOV (@ bkj-cache80.jaring.my) on: Wed May 19 00:08:59 EDT 1999
  
  I too go by Ravi's opinion. Ignorance is indeed bliss. I know a little (actually a lot) ofn desk-top publiching. The sad point is that I am unable to actually enjoy a magazine, as I am immediately attracted to the layout and design and sub-cociously criticise it. Not so the other readers.
  
  Similarly, my lack of knowledge in music has enabled me to accept it for what it is, without worrying too much of the techicalities.
  Which is not to say that no one should learn music. Rather preferably, it should be learned by people who want to practice it.
  
  
• From: Rags (@ stingray.cincom.com) on: Wed May 19 01:31:37 EDT 1999
  
  I guess it has a lot to do with an individual attitude.
  
  Knowledge can NEVER be a deterant (check spelling !) If anything, it can help an individual appreciate some finer points of the subject. If it comes in the way of appreciation it NEVER is due to their "knowledge" - It is usually their prejudice.
  
  So what if there are mistakes, one can fully appreciate and accept the mistakes and still appreciate. SPB's pronunciations, Rajini's pronunciations are far from perfect but that has NEVER come in the way of their million fans appreciating them. Actually they have imitators now :-))
  
  Poet Kalidas once remarked that while we appreciate the beauty of the moon, we NEVER mind the black spots (note the usage of "mind" rather than "ignore").
  
  My point is, appreciation is a fine art and has more to do with 'heart' than with 'brain'.
  
  All the empasis are intentional.
  
  

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