Topic started by Raja Fan (@ 172.173.66.66) on Tue Oct 16 02:05:01 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
I have only just a few days back heard Puthiya Mugam and Thiruda, Thiruda songs with pure attention for the first time. Believe it or not! It has changed my perception of ARR totally. However, i also became eager to explore most of his other compositions. Did not get the consistency that TT/PM must have heralded. Most of the songs of other movies beside a few classic works were kind or random attempts at coming up with some trump card or ace up the sleeve, classic songs like Puthum Pudhu Vendum, Netru Illadha Maatram, Kannum Kannum, Raasathi spilleth over with originality, energy, innovation and universal appeal. And, there are many songs that appear to be amalgams of various romantic ballads (best example is: Arisal Tharisal in Taj Mahal), pop hits, waltzes, spanish tango, our own old Tamil classic songs, bits from a old Hindi song, the underlying theme was what motivates ARR to be what he is, either amazing originality and universal appeal or cut and paste tactics. And, how ARR's music sound so original overall and seems to have totally antiquated every other Indian film music? And, also why did not IR have the same strategies and ingenuity as ARR as explained above? What was IR's motivation and how is ARR's Ingenuity much more necessary for success in today's than IR's creativity (original of all original composers) and why do KR and YSR lag behind heavily in their ability to amaze the audience like ARR does. I will give outline of my analysis of ARR' approach: First of all, we must not forget that ARR had huge international exposure (and to very up and coming genres world-wide) at a very early age when IR at the age was performing in folk programs across south India. So, he knew to what sounds international audience do not squirm in their seats! Plus, his audience base was international then and there. IR, KR & YSR did not have that grounding at all in my understanding. There basically tells you about what ARR is composed of. His motivation? He wants the richness of Indian film music appreciated world wide. His ingenuity: the ability to accept for himself that he can kick the age-old belief of all Indian composers that being original is the best modus operandi for sustained creativity. ARR turned that upside down and said I love a lot of music, why not incorporate that or use those to develop different variations of those melodies (the TK Mahalingam classic in Jodi is an example)ARR has done that in an ongoing basis as I am checking out most of his songs, I find so much familiar material!!!!!! IR, MSV and others would have shuddered at the thought of doing what ARR. This is ARR's strategy along with the thought that music can be more simple with less notes in the main melody, very strong melody structure so that does aaway with the need for interludes etc.. IR himself has once said that if the melody is good then he would not waste too much time on interludes and preludes! (But, he practiced that very rarely even for excellent melodies, he had extraordinary interludes just the same he gave for insipid melodies) There is so much I am discovering about ARR and it is very inspiring because I too would do the same today. As Anuradha Sriram once said that with the right background anyone can become an ARR and IR. However, I disagree that anyone can become an IR (Lalgudi said, IR is culmination of countless births living in music!!) Even though IR's motivation did not have such a national or global scale as ARR's IR belief was in originality. His western classical influence did not show as Mozart or Bach in his songs, but ARR's do. His music has Beethoven, Vivaldi maybe some Opera works or other classical composers! So is another ARR possible? Yes, very possible. (Just follow this strategy of turning all accepted beliefs and standards upside down coupled with extraordinary exposure you can be an ARR.) In fact, I believe ARR is only the beginning of a cultural musical phenomena maybe could be called the Enlightened Mod Rhythm era or something we are going to witness in the decades to come. Just as IR was the end of the era of 50 or so years of a final stage of the Melodic Romance Period of Indian Film Music by combining all styles heralding a new age phenomenon called Ilayaraaja style!! Any opinions about ARR' Strategy, Ingenuity and Motivation versus IRs? And, do you think KR and YSR match up at all with ARR's ingenuity, because they do not apparently have the motivation and strategy as ARRs? If anyone knows their opinions on ARR's cut and paste songs, please input here. I have to hear some more lefft out movies.. so i will fill in. This is not ARR and IR debate, please please note. This is only what IR missed out in motivation and what ARR will be able to achieve in the future based on his past and other issues discussed above. In fact, I am an ARR Fan already!!!!!
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: WCM (@ 216.67.74.142)
on: Wed Oct 17 17:13:08 EDT 2001
I mentioned the excessive use of 4/4 in ARR. Incidentally, I read an article by guitarist Prasanna (who works a lot with ARR) in wwww.raaja.com about IR's music which I thought was rather precise. I ended up listening to a song he suggested 'aruna kirana' from guru. There you go! The song is in 7/4 and the orchestration is quite fabulous reflecting true WCM knowledge in the use of harp, oboe etc. I also heard that those instruments were played by real players (not on keyboards) from Budapest Symphony orchestra. Rf, at some point, one has to learn composition and orchestration to really bring out richness of WCM and can't eternally use trial and error by using keyboard samples and other gizmos. Eg, Paul Mc Cartney or Yanni have written large pieces but still go on saying they can't read or write. Do you think the 'real' classical world will ever take their orchestral works seriously? Incidentally, if you see album credits of ARR stuff, even the rather few notable string arrangements are usually done by some guy called Moorthy and in Lagaan, I believe it was Prasanna. That's ok but ARR would open up to a lot more in WCM if he really learns his stuff the way most other composers learn - to read, write, learn harmony, orchestration etc. Even John Williams or Andrew Lloyd Webber who do popular music with orchestras are very well schooled. You should check that Aruna Kirana song out.
- From: KS (@ 165.122.129.199)
on: Wed Oct 17 17:37:19 EDT 2001
yeah! ARR's songs r usually 4/4. b'cos that is the general rhythm which sounds quite rhythmic and makes many sway:) other than 4/4, it becomes a little difficult to come up with some decent, rhythmic, melodious, intricate compositions which tend to be somehow less rhythmic for people to sway:)
that is why if u notice carefully, there r many non 4/4s in IR's compositions than others'. I think he likes to try those unusual ones...like the one in "chinna maharani" from kutti.
- From: Saketh@Atlanta (@ 66.56.8.81)
on: Wed Oct 17 18:56:56 EDT 2001
I think IR's music is poetry, ARR's is just well written prose!
- From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76)
on: Wed Oct 17 19:35:00 EDT 2001
songs r usually 4/4. b'cos that is the general rhythm which sounds quite rhythmic and makes many sway:). i thot 3/4's what makes people sway!
- From: repeat (@ 202.188.40.57)
on: Wed Oct 17 21:06:36 EDT 2001
I have only just a few days back heard Puthiya Mugam and Thiruda, Thiruda songs with pure attention for the first time. Believe it or not! It has changed my perception of ARR totally. However, i also became eager to explore most of his other compositions. Did not get the consistency that TT/PM must have heralded. Most of the songs of other movies beside a few classic works were kind or random attempts at coming up with some trump card or ace up the sleeve, classic songs like Puthum Pudhu Vendum, Netru Illadha Maatram, Kannum Kannum, Raasathi spilleth over with originality, energy, innovation and universal appeal. And, there are many songs that appear to be amalgams of various romantic ballads (best example is: Arisal Tharisal in Taj Mahal), pop hits, waltzes, spanish tango, our own old Tamil classic songs, bits from a old Hindi song, the underlying theme was what motivates ARR to be what he is, either amazing originality and universal appeal or cut and paste tactics. And, how ARR's music sound so original overall and seems to have totally antiquated every other Indian film music? And, also why did not IR have the same strategies and ingenuity as ARR as explained above? What was IR's motivation and how is ARR's Ingenuity much more necessary for success in today's than IR's creativity (original of all original composers) and why do KR and YSR lag behind heavily in their ability to amaze the audience like ARR does. I will give outline of my analysis of ARR' approach: First of all, we must not forget that ARR had huge international exposure (and to very up and coming genres world-wide) at a very early age when IR at the age was performing in folk programs across south India. So, he knew to what sounds international audience do not squirm in their seats! Plus, his audience base was international then and there. IR, KR & YSR did not have that grounding at all in my understanding. There basically tells you about what ARR is composed of. His motivation? He wants the richness of Indian film music appreciated world wide. His ingenuity: the ability to accept for himself that he can kick the age-old belief of all Indian composers that being original is the best modus operandi for sustained creativity. ARR turned that upside down and said I love a lot of music, why not incorporate that or use those to develop different variations of those melodies (the TK Mahalingam classic in Jodi is an example)ARR has done that in an ongoing basis as I am checking out most of his songs, I find so much familiar material!!!!!! IR, MSV and others would have shuddered at the thought of doing what ARR. This is ARR's strategy along with the thought that music can be more simple with less notes in the main melody, very strong melody structure so that does aaway with the need for interludes etc.. IR himself has once said that if the melody is good then he would not waste too much time on interludes and preludes! (But, he practiced that very rarely even for excellent melodies, he had extraordinary interludes just the same he gave for insipid melodies) There is so much I am discovering about ARR and it is very inspiring because I too would do the same today. As Anuradha Sriram once said that with the right background anyone can become an ARR and IR. However, I disagree that anyone can become an IR (Lalgudi said, IR is culmination of countless births living in music!!) Even though IR's motivation did not have such a national or global scale as ARR's IR belief was in originality. His western classical influence did not show as Mozart or Bach in his songs, but ARR's do. His music has Beethoven, Vivaldi maybe some Opera works or other classical composers! So is another ARR possible? Yes, very possible. (Just follow this strategy of turning all accepted beliefs and standards upside down coupled with extraordinary exposure you can be an ARR.) In fact, I believe ARR is only the beginning of a cultural musical phenomena maybe could be called the Enlightened Mod Rhythm era or something we are going to witness in the decades to come. Just as IR was the end of the era of 50 or so years of a final stage of the Melodic Romance Period of Indian Film Music by combining all styles heralding a new age phenomenon called Ilayaraaja style!! Any opinions about ARR' Strategy, Ingenuity and Motivation versus IRs? And, do you think KR and YSR match up at all with ARR's ingenuity, because they do not apparently have the motivation and strategy as ARRs? If anyone knows their opinions on ARR's cut and paste songs, please input here. I have to hear some more lefft out movies.. so i will fill in. This is not ARR and IR debate, please please note. This is only what IR missed out in motivation and what ARR will be able to achieve in the future based on his past and other issues discussed above. In fact, I am an ARR Fan already!!!!!
- From: repeat (@ 202.188.40.57)
on: Wed Oct 17 21:06:45 EDT 2001
I have only just a few days back heard Puthiya Mugam and Thiruda, Thiruda songs with pure attention for the first time. Believe it or not! It has changed my perception of ARR totally. However, i also became eager to explore most of his other compositions. Did not get the consistency that TT/PM must have heralded. Most of the songs of other movies beside a few classic works were kind or random attempts at coming up with some trump card or ace up the sleeve, classic songs like Puthum Pudhu Vendum, Netru Illadha Maatram, Kannum Kannum, Raasathi spilleth over with originality, energy, innovation and universal appeal. And, there are many songs that appear to be amalgams of various romantic ballads (best example is: Arisal Tharisal in Taj Mahal), pop hits, waltzes, spanish tango, our own old Tamil classic songs, bits from a old Hindi song, the underlying theme was what motivates ARR to be what he is, either amazing originality and universal appeal or cut and paste tactics. And, how ARR's music sound so original overall and seems to have totally antiquated every other Indian film music? And, also why did not IR have the same strategies and ingenuity as ARR as explained above? What was IR's motivation and how is ARR's Ingenuity much more necessary for success in today's than IR's creativity (original of all original composers) and why do KR and YSR lag behind heavily in their ability to amaze the audience like ARR does. I will give outline of my analysis of ARR' approach: First of all, we must not forget that ARR had huge international exposure (and to very up and coming genres world-wide) at a very early age when IR at the age was performing in folk programs across south India. So, he knew to what sounds international audience do not squirm in their seats! Plus, his audience base was international then and there. IR, KR & YSR did not have that grounding at all in my understanding. There basically tells you about what ARR is composed of. His motivation? He wants the richness of Indian film music appreciated world wide. His ingenuity: the ability to accept for himself that he can kick the age-old belief of all Indian composers that being original is the best modus operandi for sustained creativity. ARR turned that upside down and said I love a lot of music, why not incorporate that or use those to develop different variations of those melodies (the TK Mahalingam classic in Jodi is an example)ARR has done that in an ongoing basis as I am checking out most of his songs, I find so much familiar material!!!!!! IR, MSV and others would have shuddered at the thought of doing what ARR. This is ARR's strategy along with the thought that music can be more simple with less notes in the main melody, very strong melody structure so that does aaway with the need for interludes etc.. IR himself has once said that if the melody is good then he would not waste too much time on interludes and preludes! (But, he practiced that very rarely even for excellent melodies, he had extraordinary interludes just the same he gave for insipid melodies) There is so much I am discovering about ARR and it is very inspiring because I too would do the same today. As Anuradha Sriram once said that with the right background anyone can become an ARR and IR. However, I disagree that anyone can become an IR (Lalgudi said, IR is culmination of countless births living in music!!) Even though IR's motivation did not have such a national or global scale as ARR's IR belief was in originality. His western classical influence did not show as Mozart or Bach in his songs, but ARR's do. His music has Beethoven, Vivaldi maybe some Opera works or other classical composers! So is another ARR possible? Yes, very possible. (Just follow this strategy of turning all accepted beliefs and standards upside down coupled with extraordinary exposure you can be an ARR.) In fact, I believe ARR is only the beginning of a cultural musical phenomena maybe could be called the Enlightened Mod Rhythm era or something we are going to witness in the decades to come. Just as IR was the end of the era of 50 or so years of a final stage of the Melodic Romance Period of Indian Film Music by combining all styles heralding a new age phenomenon called Ilayaraaja style!! Any opinions about ARR' Strategy, Ingenuity and Motivation versus IRs? And, do you think KR and YSR match up at all with ARR's ingenuity, because they do not apparently have the motivation and strategy as ARRs? If anyone knows their opinions on ARR's cut and paste songs, please input here. I have to hear some more lefft out movies.. so i will fill in. This is not ARR and IR debate, please please note. This is only what IR missed out in motivation and what ARR will be able to achieve in the future based on his past and other issues discussed above. In fact, I am an ARR Fan already!!!!!
- From: repeat (@ 202.188.40.57)
on: Wed Oct 17 21:06:53 EDT 2001
I have only just a few days back heard Puthiya Mugam and Thiruda, Thiruda songs with pure attention for the first time. Believe it or not! It has changed my perception of ARR totally. However, i also became eager to explore most of his other compositions. Did not get the consistency that TT/PM must have heralded. Most of the songs of other movies beside a few classic works were kind or random attempts at coming up with some trump card or ace up the sleeve, classic songs like Puthum Pudhu Vendum, Netru Illadha Maatram, Kannum Kannum, Raasathi spilleth over with originality, energy, innovation and universal appeal. And, there are many songs that appear to be amalgams of various romantic ballads (best example is: Arisal Tharisal in Taj Mahal), pop hits, waltzes, spanish tango, our own old Tamil classic songs, bits from a old Hindi song, the underlying theme was what motivates ARR to be what he is, either amazing originality and universal appeal or cut and paste tactics. And, how ARR's music sound so original overall and seems to have totally antiquated every other Indian film music? And, also why did not IR have the same strategies and ingenuity as ARR as explained above? What was IR's motivation and how is ARR's Ingenuity much more necessary for success in today's than IR's creativity (original of all original composers) and why do KR and YSR lag behind heavily in their ability to amaze the audience like ARR does. I will give outline of my analysis of ARR' approach: First of all, we must not forget that ARR had huge international exposure (and to very up and coming genres world-wide) at a very early age when IR at the age was performing in folk programs across south India. So, he knew to what sounds international audience do not squirm in their seats! Plus, his audience base was international then and there. IR, KR & YSR did not have that grounding at all in my understanding. There basically tells you about what ARR is composed of. His motivation? He wants the richness of Indian film music appreciated world wide. His ingenuity: the ability to accept for himself that he can kick the age-old belief of all Indian composers that being original is the best modus operandi for sustained creativity. ARR turned that upside down and said I love a lot of music, why not incorporate that or use those to develop different variations of those melodies (the TK Mahalingam classic in Jodi is an example)ARR has done that in an ongoing basis as I am checking out most of his songs, I find so much familiar material!!!!!! IR, MSV and others would have shuddered at the thought of doing what ARR. This is ARR's strategy along with the thought that music can be more simple with less notes in the main melody, very strong melody structure so that does aaway with the need for interludes etc.. IR himself has once said that if the melody is good then he would not waste too much time on interludes and preludes! (But, he practiced that very rarely even for excellent melodies, he had extraordinary interludes just the same he gave for insipid melodies) There is so much I am discovering about ARR and it is very inspiring because I too would do the same today. As Anuradha Sriram once said that with the right background anyone can become an ARR and IR. However, I disagree that anyone can become an IR (Lalgudi said, IR is culmination of countless births living in music!!) Even though IR's motivation did not have such a national or global scale as ARR's IR belief was in originality. His western classical influence did not show as Mozart or Bach in his songs, but ARR's do. His music has Beethoven, Vivaldi maybe some Opera works or other classical composers! So is another ARR possible? Yes, very possible. (Just follow this strategy of turning all accepted beliefs and standards upside down coupled with extraordinary exposure you can be an ARR.) In fact, I believe ARR is only the beginning of a cultural musical phenomena maybe could be called the Enlightened Mod Rhythm era or something we are going to witness in the decades to come. Just as IR was the end of the era of 50 or so years of a final stage of the Melodic Romance Period of Indian Film Music by combining all styles heralding a new age phenomenon called Ilayaraaja style!! Any opinions about ARR' Strategy, Ingenuity and Motivation versus IRs? And, do you think KR and YSR match up at all with ARR's ingenuity, because they do not apparently have the motivation and strategy as ARRs? If anyone knows their opinions on ARR's cut and paste songs, please input here. I have to hear some more lefft out movies.. so i will fill in. This is not ARR and IR debate, please please note. This is only what IR missed out in motivation and what ARR will be able to achieve in the future based on his past and other issues discussed above. In fact, I am an ARR Fan already!!!!!
- From: rf (@ 172.149.233.191)
on: Wed Oct 17 23:46:11 EDT 2001
repeat, pls get out from here. what do you get out of your own intellectual vacuum? try to fill it with something but don't keep it empty.
- From: to wcm (@ 132.235.18.139)
on: Thu Oct 18 02:31:02 EDT 2001
ARR did compose songs in other time signatures than 4/4 (and that includes 3/4, 6/8, 7/8, 12/8)and there are songs where the usual time signature is 4/4 but changes in the middle to other signatures or to a different accent and come back to the original.
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