TFM songs that use only 4 notes or less

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TFM songs that use only 4 notes or less TFM songs that use only 4 notes or less

Topic started by Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on Thu Nov 5 07:18:55 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am looking for tfm songs that use only 4 notes
(swaras) or less. Is it difficult to create good
tunes out of 4 notes (or less) only?

Responses:

From: Rajaraman (@ boo.ucar.edu) on: Thu Nov 5 07:49:08 EST 1998

Ragapriyan,
See the "Rare ragas" thread in Hub:Classical Music
From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Thu Nov 5 08:05:26 EST 1998

Rajaraman:

Thanks. In the newtfmpage list of tfm songs in raagaas
I find "Adhisaya raagam" song mentioned as a raaga
maalika. But you've mentioned in the Hub thread
that it is in mahaniya (s g3 p n2). Which is
right?

I am sure there are tfm songs that use 4 notes
or less, but which are not set on one of those
raagaas mentioned in that hub thread. Could we
list such songs here?
From: YGeetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Nov 5 09:50:25 EST 1998

Ragapriyan: Adisaya Ragam is indeed a Ragamalika starting with MAHATI, not "Mahaniya"(that's a composition by BMK, I believe)......

I can't think of any more TFM songs in a 4 note Raga such as that, if you know of any, please share them with us, you have made an interesting thread, if we can get results....

What songs can you think of in TFM which are in these Ragas? Please share with us, as you sound very sure that they exist......

Here is a paper on these Rare and Hard to compose in Ragas.....Happy Reading.

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~krisna/rmic/rmic.1994.10.11.html
From: Rajaraman (@ boo.ucar.edu) on: Thu Nov 5 20:47:38 EST 1998

Ragapriyan,
Adhisaya raagam follows Mahati except for the small tail piece starting "oru puram paarthaal"...
I doubt if there is any other tamil film song using 4 or less notes only.
From: The Fan (@ spider-we054.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Nov 5 21:15:02 EST 1998

Has IR composed a song with just 3 notes? Does anyone know. In Hindi, there is only one music director who has composed in 3 notes.
From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Nov 6 08:48:26 EST 1998

The Fan: Details please.......Who is the Hindi MD and what is the piece(3 note Raga)? Thanks in advance.....

Ragapriyan: The tail piece in Adisaya Ragam, I believe is in Bairavhi, another Ragam which has only been used in the old days, in a very Carnatic fashion.
From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Sat Nov 7 01:45:24 EST 1998

Geetha:

A few days ago, I just wondered whether it is easy
to create good tunes from a small number of notes
and ended up starting this thread. I don't have any
list of songs which use 4 notes or less. It is a
revelation for me to know that adhisaya raagam
uses only 4 notes for the most part of the song.
Thanks to you and Rajaraman for that info.

Is kaNNan varuvaan kadhai solluvaan from
Panchavarna kiLi based on only 4 notes? It appears
to me that it uses only G1 M1 P D1. (I am using
the S R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 D1 ... notations used
in the music notes thread.) I am only a beginner
in tracing notes, so I could be wrong. For instance,
I think the pallavi goes like...

kaNNan varuvaan kadhai solluvaan
g1g1 g1m1p pp m1g1m1

vaNNa malar thottil katti thaalaattuvaan
d1p pm1 m1g1 g1m1 pm1g1m1

kuzhaleduppaan paattisaippaan
g1m1pg1m1 pg1m1p

valamburi changeduththu paaloottuvaan
g1m1pd1 pm1g1m1 pm1g1g1

Even the beginning music for the song as well as
the interlude music seem to use the same 4 notes.
From: RR (@ boo.ucar.edu) on: Sat Nov 7 08:19:16 EST 1998

Ragapriyan,
You have missed the S note. So it becomes 5.

The beauty in Adhisaya Ragam is it just uses S G2 P N1 (in your notation). Pl check back Krishna's posting.
From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Sun Nov 8 22:36:43 EST 1998

RR:

You have missed the S note.

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean to
say that the song uses S somewhere in the song?
From: RR (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Mon Nov 9 02:47:11 EST 1998

I meant, you should count "Sa" also as a swara.
From: Ragapriyan (@ 202.54.37.18) on: Mon Nov 9 03:59:34 EST 1998

RR:

Why should we count "Sa" also when it is not
used in the song? Am I missing some basics here?
From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Tue Nov 10 07:58:07 EST 1998

RR: It is possible for a Ragam to never touch the Sa.....There is no written rule that this is not possible, OR IS THERE? Please enlighten us....

The Ragam Niroshta is SRG DNS SND GRS, so it makes it Pentatonic, like Mohanam SRGPDS SDPGRS - These are called pentatonic, as the S is counted once - It doesn't make them 6 note ragas.....

RR, where is the S in Ragapriyan's notation? OR is there a Sa in the song, I can't comment as I haven't heard the song......

Ragapriyan, I don't know this song, but your notation indicates that it is indeed a 4 note Raga.....Thanks very much for this, please keep us informed.

THE FAN: Still awaiting your 3 Note Raga and the song, not to mention the MD......
From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Tue Nov 10 18:16:49 EST 1998

Hi gIthA,

>>Ragapriyan, I don't know this song, but your notation indicates that it is indeed a 4 note Raga>>

It can't be, if I am correct. The notes r,g,m,p,d,n are harmonically related
to s. therefore the song is in a pentatonic raga but the composer had in an ingenuous fashion
"dropped" the base note sa.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
From: YGeetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Nov 13 10:41:27 EST 1998

AruLarasan: I still don't get it.....Why can a Raga not have a Sa in it? Is there a technical reason for this, as not all Ragas are Pentatonic, as Mahati, which only takes 4 notes...... It has a Sa, but if that Sa was a Ri instead, making it RGPNNPGR, why will it still be classed as Pentatonic?

I thought that in Carnatic Music, the HARMONIC relation will not count as it is a purely Melodic system!?!?! Please elaborate, this is very interesting. Thanks in advance.....
From: YGeetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Nov 13 10:47:28 EST 1998

I'd like to discuss the 'so called' Ragam that IR created in Sindhubairavhi, for the song Kalaivaaniye, where the Ragam supposedly has no Avarohanam and Takes the full Arohanam of KALYANI.....Here, he has composed the song in a fashion where the Avarohanam is not followed back in a straightforward manner, but in jumps, so as to give an illusion of not 'Coming Down'......Can this be classed a new Ragam, as it doesn't come down in the usual manner, or is it Kalyani?
From: P.Shiva (@ ) on: Thu Mar 23 07:28:52 EST 2000

pls mail me adisaya ragam song fr aprova ragangal
From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Fri Mar 24 11:59:35 EST 2000

Hi every one,
MY 2 cents worth:

The first part of adhisaya ragam is in MAhathi, mahathi, is similar to a 7th chord,
eg: c e g a# (c7th) (sa ga pa ne)
--this raga was framed by Balamurali krisha, the
song then changes to bhairavi at later stage.

MSV and KB were looking for a rare raga as kavingar wrote the first line as adhisaya rAgam...
then asked the then popular carnatic musician Balamurali, who gave this raga. MSV wasted no time and gave a complicated melody with just 4 notes.
From: MS (@ 129.252.25.228) on: Fri Mar 24 12:40:00 EST 2000

YGeetha:

Your question is somewhat similar to the doubt I raised (long back) about "graha bedhams". "RGPNNPGR" in one scale will be SRMDDRS in another. Somebody please clarify. I have also heard of "navroch" - this ragam seems to have all the swarams of ShankaraabaraNam but seem to have aaro/ avaro as "PDNSRGMP / PMGRSNDP" - seems pretty interesting. Please correct me if I am wrong and please xplain how can it be different.
From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Fri Mar 24 14:54:45 EST 2000

MS:

First, Y Geetha does not frequent these pages any more so you are not going to get an answer soon. If you are now wondering if her absence is a direct consequence of something you did/said then, live with that guilt. (Let me have the temporary pleasure of seeing you squirm):-)

ShankarabharaNam from Sa, becomes Kaafi from Ri, Sindu Bhairavi from Ga, KalyaaNi from Ma, Hari KaambOji from Pa, Natabhairavi from Dha, and Some crazy raag from Ni (with both ma and no pa).
From: MS (@ homer.ece.sc.edu) on: Fri Mar 24 16:11:29 EST 2000

G:

It is the wavelength, not the frequeny ,which is more important for discussions :-) (vEra yaarum kidaikkaliyaa ?)

YEah..I do agree that I discussed it when we were in thRethaa yugam . My quest for knowledge is something which transcends all barriers including temporal :-) (DO not force me to write more..We can do it "privately" else you know what topic I shall "esily" digress into:-))
From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Fri Mar 24 18:57:05 EST 2000

MS,

nInga SC-la edu-la irukkInga theriyAma pOchchE!

:-)
From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Sun Mar 26 12:25:05 EST 2000

aruL..ithu ennOda friend VelaiyaththavanOda IP :-)
From: Vinay (@ ) on: Thu Apr 8 10:13:48 EDT 2004

Ragapriyan:

I haven't heard the song, but if your notes are correct then definitely, the song is in a 4-note raga. But it is possible you got the shruthi wrong. What I mean is, what you take to be 'g1' could be some other note. I tried to apply graha bhedam and got four possible ragas (If you didn't understand, please mail me). None of them is any raga I know of. One of these that seemed probable is:

S R2 G2 N2 S' (Which can be said to be a janya of Kharaharapriya).

Now in this one, Sa takes the place of Ma in your notes. Similarly, Ri takes the place of Pa, Ga takes the place of Dha, and Ni takes the place of Ga.

This seems probable because in your notes, the first two lines end in Ma, and therefore, it could be the shruthi (Sa). Before transcribing the notes of song, you should first figure out the shruthi. This is quite easy. Just sing a few lines (in your mind, if you cannot sing well). Then sing the note Sa. The Sa you sing will be the note which is heard longest in the song, and sometimes, it will be the note in which the song, or most of its lines, end in.

(Read my next comment too...)
From: Vinay (@ ) on: Thu Apr 8 10:14:26 EDT 2004

Ragapriyan:

I haven't heard the song, but if your notes are correct then definitely, the song is in a 4-note raga. But it is possible you got the shruthi wrong. What I mean is, what you take to be 'g1' could be some other note. I tried to apply graha bhedam and got four possible ragas (If you didn't understand, please mail me). None of them is any raga I know of. One of these that seemed probable is:

S R2 G2 N2 S' (Which can be said to be a janya of Kharaharapriya).

Now in this one, Sa takes the place of Ma in your notes. Similarly, Ri takes the place of Pa, Ga takes the place of Dha, and Ni takes the place of Ga.

This seems probable because in your notes, the first two lines end in Ma, and therefore, it could be the shruthi (Sa). Before transcribing the notes of song, you should first figure out the shruthi. This is quite easy. Just sing a few lines (in your mind, if you cannot sing well). Then sing the note Sa. The Sa you sing will be the note which is heard longest in the song, and sometimes, it will be the note in which the song, or most of its lines, end in.

(Read my next comment too...)
From: Vinay (@ 202.9.167.181) on: Thu Apr 8 10:15:46 EDT 2004

aruLarasan:

It can't be the case that the composer has left out Sa from the composition, because then it will be a new raga (similar is the case when you say that Shama is not Arabhi, although they are the same except for the absence of the note Ni in Shama). This is actually a matter of convention. But in the case of this song, it is possible that Ragapriyan got the shruthi worng, when transcribing the notes. This too is a matter of convention. From what I know, it is not theoretically wrong to exclude Sa from a raga. But this leads to problems for the singer during Alapanam, becouse he tends to end the Alapana in Sa, as is usual. This might be overcome by practice, but it is really easier to include Sa in the raga. If you still have doubts please email me.
From: Vinay (@ 202.9.167.181) on: Thu Apr 8 10:16:18 EDT 2004

Everyone:

I don't happen to know any film songs in any 3-note raga, but I do happen to know a song by Balamuralikrishna in Sarvasri, a 3-note raga created by himself.

The raga is:

S M1 P S'
S' P M1 S

(Shadja, Shuddha Maddhyama, Panchama)

The notation I am going to use simply consists of Sa, Ma and Pa, as I have already mentioned which notes appear in the raga. A ' after a note indicates that it's in the higher octave (Tara Sthayi), and a ' before note indicates that it's in the lower octave (Mandra Sthayi). A comma (,) indicates that the note should be held one note longer. A space doesn't mean anything. I don't know whether the notes of the song are exactly as I have given, but I think they are. I am a bit unsure about the notes at the end of the song.

Here it is:

U..mA. su.tham na..mA...mi
Sa Ma, Ma Pa, Sa' Pa, Ma

Ma.ma MA..na.sa. sthi.tham..............
Ma Ma Pa, Ma Ma, Pa Ma, Ma Pa Ma Pa Sa

(Uma sutham..)

Ku..mA..rA..gra.jam.... a...sa..mA...na. su..mE...ru.dhee.ram
Sa' Ma, Pa, Sa' Sa',,Pa Sa' Sa' Ma', Ma, Sa' Sa', Ma Pa, Sa'

A...mO...ha. pha.la...pra.dam kha.la.vi.mO..cha.na gu.NA..Nvi.tham
Sa' Ma', Ma' Sa' Sa', Pa Pa, Pa Ma Ma Pa, Ma Ma Sa Sa, Pa Sa,

Pra.mO..da.ka.ra mu.ra.lee.ga.na mO......di.tham sa..tha.tham
Sa Sa, Sa Sa Sa Pa Pa Pa, Pa Pa Sa' Sa' Pa Pa Sa' Pa Ma

(Uma sutham...)
From: Vinay (@ 202.9.167.181) on: Thu Apr 8 10:18:35 EDT 2004

Oops, sorry about that double message-post.

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