ARR's skills in Composing tunes for Lyrics.

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ARR's skills in Composing tunes for Lyrics. ARR's skills in Composing tunes for Lyrics.

Topic started by Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on Sat Feb 2 10:01:05 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

With all humility, I request all others not to make this thread yet another battle ground.

Now, I read that the "Chinna chinna aasai" and "azhagu" songs were written way before ARR actually composed tune for it. He did amazingly well on these songs that one of them went on to start a new chapter in IFM history.

I want you guys to discuss ARR's skills in composing tunes for lyrics. How good is he in this area. More examples....more thoughts....
All are welcome to write in favour of or againts this skill of ARR. But, maintain decency...please.

Responses:

From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.137) on: Sat Feb 2 10:20:00 EST 2002

Cool topic.
Can someone explain the difference in how composing music for pre-written lyrics is done as when compared to just pre-lyrics composing.
Speaking of which, in the 50s & 60s I heard it was normal for music to be composed only after the lyrics were written. Is this true?
From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Sat Feb 2 11:18:41 EST 2002

I could site one another example. The "narumugaiye" song from iruvar was also composed for the lyrics. ARR has done some amazing work on this.

Also, I remember seeing Pa. vijay's (lyricist) interview in TV where he said that ARR composed song for his lyrics "Swasame". I am not very sure about this.
Could somebody enlighten us
From: ajlg (@ 151.201.225.222) on: Sat Feb 2 11:30:35 EST 2002

Yes, his first song was for a prewritten lyric.
"china china asai", this Viramugthu's song was already tuned by MSV for a DD special program Around 1988, This was also one of the main Reason Viramuthu was working close with Arr, since he got more open and free environment to write.
ARR can do it, it is not a big deal for him.
From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Sat Feb 2 11:41:05 EST 2002

>>>ARR can do it, it is not a big deal for him:

We know that. Lets compare ARR with ARR himself. How has he faired. Is he comfortable with tune first lyrics next or does he takes up challenges like this.

In KM too, I some how feel that KM song is partly this way and partly that way. You can see the tune suddenly changing to accomodate the lyrics.
From: Mr. Observer (@ 64.105.35.113) on: Sat Feb 2 13:32:15 EST 2002

The 'Asai' and 'azhagu' songs are easiest to make a tune for, no big deal. ARR has taken the natural santham along till the song's completion. That these songs provide listening pleasure is a different matter altogether. One could easily guess that the 'swasamE' song had the lyrics written first because the charanam was the usual, Rahmanish, painfully 'constructed' product. A Rahman song (in general) becoming palatable is more due to his presentation skills rather than a strong melody base. Please...no 'he used Spanish guitar interludes' or 'he mixed Indian folk with middle eastern folk' types of rebuttals , we are discussing tunes here. Impressing listeners through a single thread of music (in this case, a tune) is certainly no mean task and ARR has some way to go in this regard. But all said and done, his willingness to give pre-written lyrics a shot is laudable.
From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Sun Feb 3 01:42:08 EST 2002

Please don't get me wrong...but doesn't the lyricist also write the songs to a rhythm and meter and that makes the composer's job easier ?

All the songs mentioned above - "CCA, A, Sw" are very rhythmic..so the lyricist also has played a major if not equal part. What takes the cake is the presentation skills of ARR as mentioned by Observer. And if i may add, ARR's ability to structure it well with melody etc.
From: mahabs (@ 203.199.209.81) on: Sun Feb 3 01:46:43 EST 2002

cf,

i don't know about 'azhagu' song. but i read a vm's interview, in which he said, the tune was composed first, then vm wrote the first few lines and used some of his old poem lines and wrote some lines new.

one of my friends told me that recently, arr has asked ilayakamban to write some 50 poems using sangam period tamil words. like narumugaiyae...

but the poet refused to reveal anything about the poems.

anbudan

mahabs
From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.137) on: Sun Feb 3 03:06:21 EST 2002

Common Friend,

here are a couple of posts from an earlier thread "Tune for Lyrics..." started by NaNbaN (should be found in the archives):

From: Srinath (@ socks7d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Tue Jun 23 14:20:22 EDT 1998

I thought "Kannukku Mai Azhagu" - Pudhiya Mugham was written before the 'ARR tune' was composed (I mean, like several years before the tune was composed !). Am I right ? I remember seeing the original song on DD. The singer was wearing specs (PS ?). I still remember the original tune though !

From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Tue Jun 23 15:00:45 EDT 1998

Kanchana, Eazhaavathu Manidhan's MD was L.Vaidhyanaathan. Srinath, you're right about "Kannukku Mai Azhagu", it was one of VM's favorites and he wanted to get it recorded for a movie, somehow IR never took to the song while they worked together.
From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.137) on: Sun Feb 3 03:16:14 EST 2002

Here's an excerpt from an ARR interview. Can be found at http://music.indya.com/features/film/rahman_in.html

"Lagaan was absolutely different from any of your other films. What sort of research did you do for Lagaan?
I had to work mainly on the orchestration part. You will be surprised to know that the music of Lagaan was composed in one and a half months. Director Ashutosh had written down dummy lyrics on which I composed the songs and asked him whether they matched the period the film was set in. Of course, Javed Akhtar's lyrics are great. Even Aamir has contributed a lot to the music of Lagaan. The lyrics in Lagaan were more in Avadhi. I am trying to get more friendly with the north Indian audience, trying to widen my horizons. Earlier I had only composed music for dubbed films barring two - Kabhi Naa Kabhi and Rangeela."
From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.187) on: Sun Feb 3 03:33:11 EST 2002

I feel that the toughest thing for an MD is to compose tune for lyrics. KVM is an uncrowned Kind in this (Universal truth...so is instead of was).

I have seen interviews of VM were he says that ARR asked him to maintain the lyrics and he went ahead to compose new tunes or make changes in tunes to accomodate the lyrics. I think you need some guts to do like this, where you take on the responsibility on yourself. I have earlier also mentioned that ARR's song as a product is a team effort. This is one of his dimensions of the team effort.
From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Mon Feb 4 00:15:26 EST 2002

An interesting, bit related news...

though i hate to listen to vairamuthu when he speaks, on a day i was listening to him in an interview. It was long back, i try to recollect what he was talking. Sometimes after the release of Kizhakku cheemayilae, when it became hit. He was referring to thenkizhakku cheemayilae song, i guess. Bharathiraaja asked lyrics and tune for that meloncholy situation from VM and rahman seperately. Both went to their respective places and after sometime(or one or two days, i dont remember exactly) both came with their product. Bharathiraaja was overwhelmed to listen to the tune and the lyrics. They found a few words were misfitting to the tune, but apart from that the song and the tune were matching very well. Bharathiraaja didn't want to lose either. Rahmaan too offered to change the tune a bit but finally VM won the discussion and he changed the lyrics at someplaces with different fitting words but maintaining the same meaning. This news is interesting. This is neither tune for lyrics nor lyrics for tune.

Regarding chinna chinna aasai i too think what mahabs said is correct. It was a fit for tune only. But VM did not write the lyrics after the tune. He suggested to use his old lyrics with a few modifications according to the tune and situation and Mani, ARR agreed to that. In a few occations VM had done that(earlier as well as later). Example for earlier is iLayanila (or) pon maalai pozhudhu, i guess.
From: Its Me (@ 192.11.188.113) on: Mon Feb 4 08:19:16 EST 2002

In one of the interviews ARR said that All the songs in TAAL were written first and then tuned. I will try to search & post that link.

Moreover, the song "Nee Kattum Sela " from Pudhiya mannargal was also tuned for pre-written lyrics.
From: Its Me (@ 192.11.188.113) on: Mon Feb 4 08:49:12 EST 2002

Here is the interview ( message from arrahmanfans group )
This is the translation of the interview that appeared in a marathi
magazine.

Ravi.
--------------
You always experiment when composing for films. This has given you an
identity. How do you feel, going on this somewhat different path?

ARR: We see elder people talking about old songs, their melody, but the
younger generation is not attracted much towards that. I felt that they
wanted something new, besides the melody. So I wished to do something
that would appeal to both generations. May be its because of these
experimentations that my songs might be liked by people of different
strata.

Who, do you think, has influenced your music?

ARR: I can't pinpoint just one such person. I've worked with various
music directors and commercial producers. This includes Illaya Raja and
MS Vishwanathan, to L Shankar and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. All these
people had different ideas and expectations. I got a chance to know
these. I consider myself lucky.

They say that a musician's personality reflect in his music. What is
your opinion on this?

ARR: Having worked with different people, I learnt various styles of
music. I got influenced by fusion music while working with the band
"Roots". So I used it a lot at the beginning, but I didn't get trapped
in it. I didn't want to get confined to one thing, and wanted to try
classical, folk music, quawali. This must have reflected in my music in
the past 2-3 years and would continue.

Sometimes you use instruments in unorthodox ways, thus making different
sounds and beats. Can you tell something about this?

ARR: I sometimes do that to create a natural feel. Anything in excess
makes it boring.

Music Directors of the past have made use of western music. For eg. a
song like "ina mina dika" is based on western style. Still those songs
became popular and people still hum them. On this background, what do
you try to do, so that your songs are remembered for a long time? What
do you find in the MDs of the past that you would like to inculcate?

ARR: I think good lyrics and melody never die. Their influence is felt
forever. But if I begin to inculcate things of the past MDs, I'd be
blamed of copying. Be it Naushad, R.D.Burman or Madan Mohan. These are
all great musicians. We can never beat them. Times change, but the soul
of music remains the same. To maintain that there has to be original
music. I remember, around 12-13 years back, after the song "Tere Mere
Beech Mein" became a hit; most of the songs were made in the
"Shivaranjani" Raag. Though those songs became popular, after a limit
they became boring.

Which kind of music do you like?

ARR: I don't listen to any particular kind of music. I listen to
anything that I like. In fact I don't get the tranquility to listen to
music. I do sometimes, when I'm traveling.

What is your way of composing songs? Are the tunes made before the
lyrics or vice versa?

ARR: Many of my songs have been made with lyrics coming first. I think a
better tune is made because of lyrics. But nowadays everyone wants to
listen to the tunes first. If two people have good understanding, it
doesn't matter what comes first. In these times of "fast" songs, you
can't make lyrics first. In such cases, tunes have to be composed first.
But in case of "melody" songs, lyrics are important. For example, 90
percent of the songs of "Taal" were made having lyrics first. But it was
the opposite in case of "Dil Se".

You are known to be very precise in accepting movies. When a producer or
director comes to you, what is your way of accepting them?

ARR: The director tells me the script first, and about the songs in
brief, about how the pace of the movie would be handled. I listen to
this calmly. If I like the script and the director is enthusiastic about
it, then I think about accepting the offer. Because enthusiastic people
always seek to do different things. If someone comes forward with such
an intention, then I feel like accepting it. If the director, lyricist
and the MD have the same kind of interest, the product comes out good.

What kind of compromises do you have to make while composing for
commercial Hindi cinema?

ARR: The director has some expectations keeping in mind the changing
times and the likes and dislikes of the audience. They want something in
a three-minute song that would pin the audience to the chairs. So
generally slow songs are rejected. They fear that the audiences would
leave because of slow songs. Nowadays many people like to listen to the
tune first. Only if they like them do things proceed. You come to know
the techniques of commercial films as you compose for them.

In such cases, how much importance do you give to your personal
satisfaction?

ARR: I think personal satisfaction is a very important factor. If you
think that you are doing a thing only for others, it cannot be good.
First you have to satisfy your mind, only then can you satisfy others.
This is the most important factor in composing good music.

If one looks at the journey from Roja to Lagaan, you've always tried to
do something different. 3-4 years back it was alleged that your music
always sounds the same, but that's not the case anymore. Folk music has
been used a lot in Dil Se, Taal and Lagaan. Did you make this change
because you felt the need or was it inevitable?

ARR: It's true that I was alleged of sounding the same, but I've changed
my style now. I avoid repeating and always try to do something
different. I had used North Indian style in Taal. When a film becomes
hit, there are demands of the same kind of music. But now I do not
entertain such demands. I understand that if I compose the same kind of
music, I'll be finished.

You use Lot of modern technology. Do you use this as it is the need of
the hour?

ARR: Its true that I use modern instruments for music, but it's just an
instrument. No machine does anything on its own. The person behind it is
important. If modern technology is used properly, it is beneficial.
Otherwise it creates just noise.

Music lovers have noticed the change in your style, and it has become
popular. A recent example is Lagaan. What did you feel as an MD after
listening to the script of Lagaan?

ARR: I was excited after reading the script of Lagaan. I had done a lot
of films but this seemed to be totally different. There were traditional
Indian values in it. I took fancy to them. Then we started working on it
in a systematic manner. The tunes were composed first. The Javed Akhtar
wrote the lyrics. We did all this as if we were possessed.

What must be the reason for Lagaan to be a success?

ARR: We were apprehensive in the beginning whether the music of
different kind on a different subject would click. But still we had the
urge to do something different. Some people said that a particular kind
of music would not work in the north, or classical music won't click.
But still we dared to experiment and it became successful. Lagaan erased
all notions. We used a lot of classical and folk music, and ethnic
instruments. There were a lot of things in this that would relate to
Indianness (Mother, Son, Friend, etc). Besides this, the project was of
internaional standards. I think this is the reason that this film has
become successful abroad.

You use new singers more than the established ones. What is the reason
behind this?

ARR: I use new voices about half the times. I think if a female singer
has extra-ordinary talent, her voice should be used. If we give a
different shape to their voice, it can be used very well.

You also sing...

ARR: I rarely sing. I was anxious earlier about my voice. But that
anxiety vanished after listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. I was amazed
by his voice. I sing sometimes just to give it a try. You require a
different kind of ability to sing. You require "riyaaz".

You have worked with the internationally acclaimed Andrew Lloyd Webber
and Shekhar Kapur.

ARR: Yeah, that was a wonderful experience. You tend to feel that while
working on an international arena, you need to do something new. But
they expect just what you are currently doing. They project your music
in a different way. If different people come together and their talents
mix well, then the results are majestic.

Which films are you currently working on?

ARR: Half are of parallel cinema types and half are commercial. This
includes films by Shyam Benegal, Tanvir Ahmed, Khalid Mohammed, Atul
Agnihotri, Jhamu Sugandh, Vasu Bhagnani, Bharatbala, etc. I'm also
learning Urdu currently. I'm can understand words better because of
this. I'm working on hundred years old gazals. I hope this experiment
becomes successful. Lets see...

What do you think is the meaning of "music"? And are you satisfied with
what you have achieved till now?

ARR: I think you don't achieve anything in the music field. Music is
like a journey. You keep on crossing steps one by one. When you stop at
a step, it means that you are exhausted. So I feel music is like a
search. You have to continue the search, and you find new splendor out
of it. This is a never-ending action.

(Source - Marathi publication "Sakaal-Deepavali" - Interview by Mukund
Lele)

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