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Isn't Ilaiyaraja the most over-rated person in Tamil film world?

Topic started by Shyam (@ ascella.anonymizer.com) on Thu Jun 24 21:59:14 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

RAGADEVAN??? Come on!

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Responses:

• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-74-59.sprint.ca) on: Thu Jun 24 22:06:28 EDT 1999
  
  Isai Puyal? come on
  Super Srar? come on
  Ilaya thalapathi? come on
  nadigar thilakam? come on
  thEnisai thEndral? come on
  iyakunar thilakam? come on
  
  COME ON!
  
  
• From: Shyam (@ spica.anonymizer.com) on: Thu Jun 24 22:11:11 EDT 1999
  
  Puyal = God?
  Super Srar = God?
  Thalapathy = God?
  Thilakam = God?
  Thenral = God?
  
  So you believe Ilaiyaraja is God? Come on!
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Thu Jun 24 22:18:45 EDT 1999
  
  idhaya dheivam MGR ?
  
  
• From: bb (@ dialup-209.245.206.41.houston1.level3.net) on: Thu Jun 24 22:23:18 EDT 1999
  
  this has been the bane of us in general, deifying people leading to a prejudiced point of view. there have been people who believed that periyar is god, defeating his whole hypothesis:)))) claiming IR is god is also an example of such a phenomenon. BTW, there is a john coltrane church!
  
  
• From: aruvi (@ spc-isp-tor-uas-74-59.sprint.ca) on: Thu Jun 24 22:51:51 EDT 1999
  
  Shyam
  
  Don't jump to conclusions. My post was just to point out that tamil people always have a habit of giving titles to famous people. Anyhow, fans of different people are always going to he is god and stuff like that! We would be called (whatever) if we tried to talk to them sensibly.
  
  Not only Raja but many other people have been called God. Most people in the TFM are over-rated, not only IR.
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-tn074.proxy.aol.com) on: Thu Jun 24 23:17:16 EDT 1999
  
  Shyam, Raja's superhuman musical ventures cannot be that easily judged by us ordinary people. Shivaji and Raja are currently beyond our value judgement. So, people have just gone ahead and labelled them for what they are worth. It may seem that they are overrated when actually people have no other know measure to judge their extraordinary genius. Only time can tell if they have been overrated when newer phenomenon happens and has the capability to challenge their contributions and overshadow them. Currently and in the past there has been only somebody comparable (in case of IR, MSV) but not greater than these two great phenomena in Indian films. They can remain as immortal as Beethoven and Laurence Olivier in their respective fields in India
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Fri Jun 25 14:17:40 EDT 1999
  
  No is my answer. People like Mani Ratnam and ARRehman are. Sorry to sound controversial. But Ilayaraja is the least likely person to be overrated. He is the best that Tamil Film world has produced/supported.
  
  IR is called all these names because people are unable to express their appreciation with musical terminology (you cannot blame the people for ignorance of musical knowledge). So they express their joy in titles like this. This is a very indian/cultural trait. It is very similar to the way we do worship !! Do you think Christians/Muslims call their Prophets with names like the way we address Krishna ?? This is a purely unique cultural way of expressing pleasure ..Nothing wrong.
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Fri Jun 25 15:02:38 EDT 1999
  
  "Ragadevan" is a bit too much (I think RajKiran gave this title to IR and he didn't declare it in a meeting or so - he gave that title to Raja in one of his films because Raja was the one who gave him a life). The most apt title for Raja would be "Isai Gnani" (Kalaignar called Raja as "Isai Gnani" in some function).
  
  
• From: Hrishikesh (@ 202.144.10.93) on: Sat Jun 26 03:26:21 EDT 1999
  
  Hi,
  Calling IR "Isaignani" is very apt since IMO no other MD in TFM has such a vast amount of knowledge of the different music forms. The height of TFM stupidity is calling Adithyan "Isai Ilavarasan" and so on.I feel there is nothing wrong in calling ARR "Ilam Puyal" or "Isai Puyal" since it is he who has literally stormed TFM and completely pushed IR to the background which is not the easiest thing to do.
  Bye
  
  
• From: kooththan (@ mail1.pmc-vacc.com) on: Sat Jun 26 10:10:44 EDT 1999
  
  Shyam, most of us Tamils have god's names. For example, my name is Krishna. Am I?????
  
  I think you are reading too much into this 'devan' portion of this title.
  
  IMO,
  
  In the good old days, people 'earned' their titles.
  
  Like 'nadiagar thilagam', 'Sivaji', 'makkal thilagam', 'kaathal mannan'.
  
  Now a days, some idiots are given titles for their first movie. Who ever named Vijay 'ilaya thalapathi'? I think he named himself.
  
  IR has been given many titles. But, 'isaignani' is one he earned and kept. Another is 'Dr.'.
  
  Titles like 'Isai pithaa' (Agathyan in kaathal kavithai) and 'ragadevan' (Raj Kiran) were given by individuals for very personal reasons. We Tamilians have a habbit of saying to poeple who help us a lot 'kadavul poela vanthu kaapaathineenga'. These names sugest such sentiments expressed by these individuals. And, IMO, there's nothing wrong with it.
  
  On the other hand, I still cannot understant why titles like 'Padma sri' have never been bestowed on Raja. Is it because they don't want to be little Raja?
  
  ....later
  
  
• From: RB (@ ics.net.ksu.edu) on: Sat Jun 26 11:45:29 EDT 1999
  
  HI,
  If Deva has a title of "thenisai thendral"--then why not IR?
  Aniyama erukkey!!
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ ip196.kansas-city3.mo.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Sun Jun 27 22:13:10 EDT 1999
  
  This man is from a village. He is from a (financially) modest background. Yet, he conceives and composes mind boggling western classical scores. At the same time, he has a fine understanding of a Brahmin dominated Carnatic music, though not one himself. He composes without any instruments and writes 'nuNukkamaana' orchestration all from the mind. No accolades can overrate his musical talents/achievements. Dheivam manushya roopENaa - why not worship the saraswathi kataaksham inside this 'otherwise ordinary' human being than falling at the feet of 'kaama..(oops I'm sorry) 'premanandas of the world.
  
  True, titles and padhavis have become dime a dozen in thamizh naadu, but a few are quite deserving. IR is definitely one of them.
  
  
• From: Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Jun 28 00:20:44 EDT 1999
  
  Uncle has the last word again! Rightly used I to say "In the DF, when raja(G!) says turn, we all turn. For sheer common sense and putting things in perspective, no one beats our dear uncle!!". Cheers,uncle!
  
  
• From: S.P MAHENDRAN (@ bkj-cache82.jaring.my) on: Mon Jun 28 01:01:07 EDT 1999
  
  Raja's titled are Isai Gnani,Maestro,Ever Lasting Supremo,RagaDevan,Isai Sakravarthi,DR.,Isai Pitha,Isai Medai,Raga Gajathipathi,Isai Thalathu and God Of Music.
  
  
• From: S (@ 129.188.33.221) on: Mon Jun 28 01:18:02 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG,
  U missed one. Our man never uses a stop watch. While other MDs including MSV discuss things with the orchestra which part to cut to reduce the song by 10 -15 seconds and a stop watch to check the duration of the song, our man does it mentally.
  
  This observation was done by Sir John Scott during the re-recording of nAyagan.
  
  
• From: Raja Fan (@ spider-wg084.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Jun 28 02:34:15 EDT 1999
  
  Shankar, was John Scott visiting chennai? I have also seen IR work. It is a sheer joy to see IR at work. Nobody is as perfect in his profession as this villager for Pannaipuram.
  
  The question that lingers in my mind? If IR had done such a wonderful job in London, why was he not commissioned for further work by the foreign orchestras? Why? Why? Why?
  
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Mon Jun 28 15:11:46 EDT 1999
  
  S: John Scott is not yet Sir!!!!! When Murali wanted to get in touch with him, I rang and spoke with his colleague, I asked for Sir John Scott and she laughed and said that he was just John Scott and was not up for 'Sir' Pattam!!!!!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Jun 28 15:30:07 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG, Re: "brahmin dominated Carnatic music". Music listening/creation is an inherent trait of the human mind. The 7 swaras are the legacy of the people of the Indian soil (especially tamil). How can a race with written poetry dating more than 2000 yrs old have not music ? Though carnatic music has been made more exclusive, once somebody picks up the fundamentals, you are on your won when it comes to composing tunes. It is just like programming. I am sure IR would have failed if he tried to be a sabha singer (okay okay even with a less nasal voice) but composing ..its just survival of the fittest (most creative).
  
  
• From: SitaRam (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Mon Jun 28 15:53:32 EDT 1999
  
  http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Music/Artists/Composers/Scott__John/
  
  Geetha, is this the same John Scott who conducted IR's symphony?
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Tue Jun 29 06:00:20 EDT 1999
  
  Sita Ram: Yep, it is the same John Scott, he's npw with the St Pauls choir in London.....Murali and someone wanted to e-mail him, it may be worth asking them what happened!
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue Jun 29 08:48:25 EDT 1999
  
  kiru,
  
  ayyayO! neenga thappaa purinjindirukkeenga. I never said that carnatic music is the exclusive property of brahmins. You are absolutely right that creative juices do not know caste, creed, etc, etc. However, flow of information, an optimum amount of which is necessary even for the gifted creator, can be controlled by classes. For example, for many years unless one was a "Khan" of some sort, one could not become an accepted Sitar performer, until Ravi Shankar and later Nikhil Bannerjee broke the trend. There is also a perception (and perception, on many occasions, is a reality) that Jews control the entertainment (especially the performing arts) industry in Hollywood.
  
  On a personal note, I was not aware of IR's prolific Carnatic compositions until I visited Ramaswamy Gireesan's page, especially rare ragas of IR. And to think that the Triplicane baagavadhars had problems with IR's experimentation with Mari Mari Ninney!
  
  Raj,
  
  Thanks for the compliments marumaan. Cross belt pOttundapparam e-mailE anuppalaiyE, enna vishayam?
  
  S,
  
  Srikanth (MSV fan and a good friend) told me that MSV also did not use a stop watch. In fact, I wonder if they even had a stop watch when he started composing. Of course, considering IR's prowess in re-recording, if he did not use a stop watch, then it is even more remarkable.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Tue Jun 29 14:15:14 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG,
  I did not misunderstood, just wanted to point out that Carnatic/Classical music should come 'naturally' to anybody from India. That is the format of music that EVERYBODY has been using for centuries. I do not want people to get the impression that it is very different from 'other' forms of music in the country.
  
  (you are probably following what Chandra has to say about carnatic music in the Forum hub)
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.155) on: Tue Jul 6 05:34:10 EDT 1999
  
  Lord Krishna...Lord Venkateshwara....Lord Irwin...Lord Mountbatten...Lord Wellington...sessions courtla local judge kitta sollara `My Lord'...
  
  Mr Shyam -hope the above usages are good enough not to throw so much weightage around titles. The general understanding of Lord = god (deity) does not hold good in my later references above. It just means `mighty one(s)'. Likewise, devan, devarkal etc. simply means `great' personalities and not necessarily deities, let alone the supreme God!
  
  Shyam, konjam pazhaya Thamizh books eduthuppadichcha, respectfully eppidi kooppiduvanga theriyuma (i.e.wife to husband)?: Andavane, DEvareer..appadiyellam than...
  
  Funny thread....
  
  
• From: neruppu (@ m37.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Jul 12 11:18:44 EDT 1999
  
  devargal kadavulukku inayaanavargala? someone clarify. i always thought they were not in the same league as gods in the divine hierarchy. puraana specialists yaaravadhu irundhaal en ariyaamayai mannikkavum!
  
  
• From: SM (@ nat01smurugap.sgum.mci.com) on: Mon Jul 12 15:16:30 EDT 1999
  
  neruppu,
  
  devargal KadavuLukku inayaanavargaL illai. Here is the heirarchy,
  
  KadavuL > devargaL > manidhargaL
  
  
• From: bb (@ inehou-pxy04.compaq.com) on: Mon Jul 12 15:29:30 EDT 1999
  
  neruppu, unga postlle endlle "naaraayana,naaraayana" illaiyE:-)
  
  
• From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.168) on: Wed Jul 14 15:43:35 EDT 1999
  
  I wonder if Shyam is complaining about the "devan" part or the juxtapositioning of "raga" with "devan".
  
  Music , as much as religion, is inherently very individual. If one can believe in a God which one has not seen nor heard, why cannot one appreciate the musical ability of such a great composer and call him "Ragadevan"?
  
  naathikam illa :-).
  
  I am just trying to make the point that beauty, like a contact lens, is in the eyes of the beholder!
  
  

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