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ARR, IR versus Ravindra Jain, V Kumar and MSV

Topic started by Raja Fan (@ spider-wc032.proxy.aol.com) on Thu Apr 1 23:13:15 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

There are two parties claiming that IR is the best/ARR is the best. Recently, I got hold of some Ravindar Jain and VKumar cassettes. These composers are just too perfect in their creations. They have the consistency of MSV and if you notice RJ has got superior interludes than IR and songs like MSV or VK, which means RJ's greatest hits have more surprises and twists than IR. To compare ARR to these giants will be a mistake. But only one good thing about ARR, he set a new style in composing, just like RJ. Can we continue this comparison business and see where it goes? Does ARR really deserve all the credit and success, when the revolution he brings is nothing compared to what RJ, VK? And, does IR also deserve so much praise for his compositions which if not for his style of interludes does not match with the more appealing and enjoyable by a larger all india audience type of super melodies of RJ? Here I think we should analyse why IR could not appeal to a all India audience like RJ and how ARR does not deserve the attention of all India. In other words, why could not IR succeed all India and could IR have achieved that success. Name a few songs that could have been enjoyed by an allIndia audience. Likewise ARR, tell truthfully, which songs of his really deserved a comparison with the hihges levels of Indina film composers.

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Responses:

• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.243) on: Thu Apr 1 23:29:15 EST 1999
  
  Raja fan:
  
  I shall not get into the pranks of comparing RJ with IR :-). But IMO, RJ is a very good MD with high imagination. The best part of RJ is that he used KJ a lot and RPG's "Golden collection of KJ" contains many of these songs (2 CD pack - a real treasure) . As you have pointed out his interludes are definitely pleasing,but IMO not very innovative. A classic example of IR's creativity is GURU ( nth time repeated :-). The interludes , IMO, of GURU are probably the best I have heard in all my MFM/HFM/TFM experience. MSV, an MD with unparalleled creativity in making tunes fumbles a lot in the interludes. An eg for this may be "Unakkenna mElE nindrAi". Oh, what a melody, only to be put down by the guitar interlude accompanied by drums giving me a feeling of listening to another song totally different (disco ?).
  
  I do not know much abt VK though I am ardent fan of "Unnidam mayangugiraen".
  
  
  
• From: Matteroffact (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Fri Apr 2 01:16:36 EST 1999
  
  And yesterday was April 1st.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ ip129.kansas-city.mo.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Fri Apr 2 06:26:20 EST 1999
  
  Raj, My reaction exactly. Originally I was about to write a thesis titled 'Why RJ doesn't belong in the
  league as IR' - paper in partial completion of course work for IRF 503, a required curriculum to be
  conferred a Master IR Fan from the Univ. of IR Fans (Chancellor/Dean - Srinath,Raj;
  Janitor/Garbage Collector - Srinath, Raj)Then I realised that it was April 1st and have decided to
  postpone the thesis for a later date.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.157) on: Fri Apr 2 08:35:24 EST 1999
  
  May be I'm ignorant - who is this RJ & what his compositions are in TF. If some examples can be cited, then I'll be in a position to compare him with IR.
  
  Yes, I have heard a lot of music from MSV, KVM and VK. If you want me to compare MSV or KVM with IR, then I'm ready as those two merit comparison with IR IMO. VK is too low in volumes and variety to be talked about. The same thing with ARR. But this RJ????? I don't remember any volume nor value output from him in TF. Can somebody enlighten me with some of his long-lasting numbers??
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ abd1d341.ipt.aol.com) on: Fri Apr 2 09:53:07 EST 1999
  
  rajaG:
  Neenga FAIL - unless of course, I am looking for a sponsor for my Bermudas vacation and something, something....;-)))
  
  
• From: Bala (@ pc1474.utdallas.edu) on: Fri Apr 2 10:49:16 EST 1999
  
  I really don't understand why people cannot give credit to good work..I am talking about ARR..I am not a fan any particular music director..I just like good songs..So whether it is IR or ARR,if the song is good,lets give credit to it ..I agree that IR is a great music director..But lets face it..HE is not turning as many hits as he used to..Maybe his priorities have changed..Compared to IR in the last few years,ARR has captured the imagination of the world..He set a new trend in music like IR did when he came in..
  So whether it is IR or ARR or any other MD lets give credit to good work..
  This is not meant to hurt anybody's feelings..This is just my humble opinion
  
  
• From: SRK (@ inktomi.doit.wisc.edu) on: Fri Apr 2 10:55:04 EST 1999
  
  Eden: RJ is Ravindra Jain, a well known Hindi composer. His famous albums include "Chitchor", "Chashme Baddoor", "Ram teri Ganga Maili", etc. As far as I know, he did not compose anything in TFM.
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ hud04a01.ml.com) on: Fri Apr 2 12:36:16 EST 1999
  
  ravindara jain, is good MD, and if you consider that he is blind, what he achieved is really commendable. His tunes are really sweet atleast most of them , ( e.g, goriyare goriyare), but IMO, he is like VK, good for a brief period. And another overlooked factor is, he is also good lyricist.
  
  hari
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Fri Apr 2 12:40:35 EST 1999
  
  BLIND...? YO Man, That takes my respect for him to heights !!!
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.138) on: Sat Apr 3 00:14:41 EST 1999
  
  And about the reasons for `why IR could not gain all-India- recognition' cannot be so easy to find, but they are definitely not musical! My quick list of songs of IR which will get recognition even worldwide, let alone `all India':
  
  1. Kanne Kalaimane (Moonram pirai)
  2. Ninaivo oru paravai (Sigappu rojakkal)
  3. Ilayanilaa(PM)
  4. Edho moham (kozhi koovuthu)
  5. Kaadhalin deepam onru (Thambikku endha ooru)
  6. Kaadhal ovium (Alaigal oyvaddhillai)
  7. Rojavaiththalattum thenral (N Nithya)
  8. Raasaththi onna (Vaidhehi Kathirundhal)
  9. Sendhoorappoove (16 Vayadhinile)
  10. Paadavaa (Naan paadum padal)
  ...
  ...
  ... There is not enough time to list the songs which will appeal to all. Talking about `Northy' audience, I can vouch all my Rectian friends from north loved each of the above.
  
  FYI, RDB admired the K Koovuthu songs telling `IR is 10 years ahead of current film music' (probably that's why L-P lifted the Anne Anne tune 10 years after the release of that film for Tezaab).
  
  All India appeal of IR's music? Just think a minute about the popularity of all those A-M numbers which are direct lifts!
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.112) on: Sat Apr 3 01:12:37 EST 1999
  
  best eg dhak dhak ..
  
  
• From: e.hari (@ user-38ld2je.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Sat Apr 3 22:00:48 EST 1999
  
  IMO, the most important reason, his failure in hindi was, his of selection songs. In hindi, in general, simple hummable tunes are preferred, than complex, sophiscated orchestrated songs. To some extent, IR selected wrong songs to market (e.g andha nilave dhan), also wrong selection of movies. The only time, he came to close to achieve was agni natcharam. The song mastana mastana was considered trash in tamil, in IR standards, but thats the most popular song he tuned in hindi, may be hey zindagi gale lagale, could be a close contender. Thinking of it, IR could have tried numbers like mastana mastana, instead of trying to show his orchestral genius. All the numbers A-M copied, belonged to this category, and they never tried to reproduce IR numbers, we generally adore down south.
  Another main factor in IR films and also KRs grahan, is the quality of lyrics. Listen to kalapani ( siraisalai), apart from non-hummable tunes, lyrics were outrightly bad.
  hari
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ pppsl767.chicagonet.net) on: Sat Apr 3 22:27:26 EST 1999
  
  I also thought the same about Mastana, Mastana song. Complex orchestration also does not jell with the Hindi audience.
  
  
• From: naradha_mamuni (@ 129.252.26.189) on: Sun Apr 4 03:36:58 EDT 1999
  
  Does this mean that TFM fan-junta has a better musical ear than HFM fan-junta ?
  
  
• From: Narada_mamunikku_vaathiyaar (@ 202.41.117.101) on: Sun Apr 4 13:34:53 EDT 1999
  
  Narada_mamuni,
  
  "Does this mean that TFM fan-junta has a better musical ear than HFM fan-junta ?"
  
  At least until 1992 year end, it was somewhat that way - but ever since 1993, TFM fan-junta's musical ear has become a cacophonistic ear !! I hope you get the import of what I am trying to convey !!
  
  
• From: RaGa (@ 202.185.130.26) on: Tue Apr 6 03:50:34 EDT 1999
  
  Any form of music is at its best when even a common man like me could understand and appreciate the music. To put the argument in my own viewport, I would like to mention an article which long back had clearly pointed out the difference between IR and ARR. The older decades definitely belonged to the HFM class. The hilight then was that the tamil people were also more devoted towards HFM and were really not towards TFM so much. It was IR who created a trend among the people of the south to listen and appreciate TFM. This was indeed the best there was in TFM. With the opening up of ARR, he literally pulled all those ardent listeners of HFM in the north towards TFM. He created a trend that brought the attention of the whole of north, in fact the whole of the country's attention towards the brilliance of TFM. This is really an achievement. So in this case woould you still argue over who is the single best and who's the worst. I think its enough and has been deiscussed more than it should be. Why not turn towards positive arguments. Please do mention your singled out opinions regarding this.
  
  
• From: Prof. Dr. Raj (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Apr 6 03:54:06 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG: Neenga miserably fail:)). Enga University-la naanum srinath-um idhuvaraikkum oru pass thaan kuduthirukkom..Andha student Rex sagayam. Avarai maadhiri nengalum edhaavadhu good work pannina, yosippom..:))
  
  
• From: Prof. Dr. Raj HaCIRFan (@ master.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Tue Apr 6 03:54:57 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG: Neenga miserably fail:)). Enga University-la naanum srinath-um idhuvaraikkum oru pass thaan kuduthirukkom..Andha student Rex sagayam. Avarai maadhiri nengalum edhaavadhu good work pannina, yosippom..:))
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Tue Apr 6 09:22:47 EDT 1999
  
  raGa,
  
  It was the same arr who made those hindi film mags generalize things like "TF MDs copy from the west" , u can't include these creatures deva/sar/sirpi here as they r not known outside TN.
  
  The sad fact is that they have ignored a real composer in Raja and have generalised things.
  
  
• From: Mr.Kuzapam (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Tue Apr 6 10:44:23 EDT 1999
  
  Nithin:
  I also thought the same about Mastana, Mastana song. Complex orchestration also does not jell with the Hindi audience.
  --- It is 100%true,
  
  but sad part in that song was, majority of the scores were direct lift from Harry Belofonde's Mama look our Buh Buh there -- why IR was forced to lift from Belfonde...God only knows.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue Apr 6 11:25:05 EDT 1999
  
  Raj and Srinath,
  
  mariyaadhaiyaa enakku Master's degree kuduththudunga. illainaa idhO Calcutta style la mirattal. Within 5 days of this post, if I have not been conferred a Masters degree, I will send out an e-mail requesting Ravi Manian to sing some of IR's choicest melodies (especially your favorites) and load it onto Rex's site. Raj, the first one will be azhagiya kaNNey - female voice is no problem! after all the great maestro (RM not IR, silly!) has rendered the duet haayra haayra haay rabbaa all by himself - check it out! The countdown has begun.
  
  
• From: bb (@ franck.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Apr 6 14:07:49 EDT 1999
  
  rajaG, please, konjam adakki vaasinga.. the person in question visits this site often. i had made a similar posting in djlk long time ago and have since been sorry for that.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue Apr 6 14:12:06 EDT 1999
  
  bb,
  
  Thanks for the tip. Could you please send me an e-mail detailing your experience. I would really appreciate that.
  
  
• From: rajiv (@ 208.238.117.38) on: Tue Apr 6 17:06:35 EDT 1999
  
  bb,
  email me also :)
  
  
• From: SPAM (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Tue Apr 6 17:13:09 EDT 1999
  
  to me too |;-).] (if you have the time)
  
  
• From: bb (@ franck.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Tue Apr 6 18:06:26 EDT 1999
  
  bb,
  email me also:)
  
  
• From: GG (@ portal.ameritech.com) on: Tue Apr 6 18:26:47 EDT 1999
  
  bb: sure, no prahblem \;--0)-}
  
  
• From: RaGa (@ 202.185.130.133) on: Tue Apr 6 23:55:47 EDT 1999
  
  Shankar,
  I understand your point. But I would not balme these people for making such music because they know what they are best at. In fact its ok to say that they are bringing music from outside for the layman to know more of music. But some of them even fail in that by degrading the spirit of the original itself. So its always the best for us to know what we expect and who delivers it at best.
  
  

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