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IR's music with ARR's recording - an indomitable combination ?

Topic started by Viswa (@ webgate6.mot.com) on Fri Apr 10 04:01:00 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Reading the discussions on the thread Review of JEANS, the album (those last few points of view involving Anand, Nithin, Sreeni, etc.) has led me to think...
Well, if ARR is damn good at the recording and IR is brilliant with the musical finesse, how would an album that has music composed by IR and recording by ARR sound like ?
Wishful thinking ? Fantasizing ? Maybe, but is'nt that what life is (almost) all about ? ;) Comments, folks....

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 11:00:11 EDT 2000
  
  Ravi,
  You are right on the dot. P Susheela said the same thing about the current trend of recording track by track. If only the studio acoustics and electronics were little better people would have enjoyed live recordings more. But, I think, the new POP recordings are popular just because they sound different. Given a good stereo system, IR's recordings sound wonderful. It gives you the wonderful live experience.
  Like you suspect, IR is not giving up his recording style, even though YSR is using it. He is just using some synth sounds to make his new recordings different from the earlier ones. However, live or realistic the recordings be people are used to that sound for 25 yrs !!! So I think that is the reason. Also, he has changed the 'color' of his compositions recently. Again and again, IR proves that he has got a mind of his own and that mind has no equal !!!
  
  
• From: pg (@ 12.20.190.1) on: Mon Oct 23 11:53:07 EDT 2000
  
  There is a ir cd on oriental : dharmathin thalaivan / kshatriyan / kizhakku vAsal. Great recording.
  
  
• From: pg (@ 12.20.190.1) on: Mon Oct 23 11:55:23 EDT 2000
  
  Recordingwise my favourites are jazz classics : john coltrane, miles davis, ella fitzgerald. They set the standard in live recording. Fifty years after they were recorded, they sound superb.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 12:24:10 EDT 2000
  
  Ravi,
  
  It didn't exactly create a "lonely" feeling for me and I thought it co-existed well with the other instruments and vocals.Are you sure your "lonely" feeling was musically induced? -))
  
  I felt like there was a mixture of interconnected feelings created by his different instruments.The best part is he put it together brilliantly and this gave me feeling I haven't experienced before.It is so complex to explain yet wonderful.
  
  You will have to listen to his songs over and over again to experience that feeling.If you're not lucky please keep trying over and over again.It gave me a feeling of triumph.
  
  Kiru,
  
  "the new POP recordings are popular just because they sound different"
  
  POP recordings?Is it your definition or musical terminology?
  
  First of all,a song becomes a hit if it has good content and then the other factors are considered.
  
  "IR proves that he has got a mind of his own and that mind has no equal !!!"
  
  This sounds to me like a overprotective mother defending her faulty child.
  
  Trend
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 12:35:12 EDT 2000
  
  Trend,
  Do not take the statement literally. Just shows how inspite of the 'market pressures' IR follows his mind. The latter part is to express my respect for him in the musical arena.
  'POP recording' is the term I use. This recording technique is used only in the POP music category- not Jazz, classical, Opera etc.
  (BTW, I quoted P Susheela to reinforce ravi's point).
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 12:38:31 EDT 2000
  
  pg, I am sure you would have heard lots of 70s rock music recordings which are very 'live/acoustic' performances.
  The Miles Davis CDs which I have, though very good, have some tape hiss.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 12:57:54 EDT 2000
  
  Kiru,
  
  I get your point.Stick to the topic.Please refrain from showing how much you revere IR.
  
  It doesn't contribute anything to the thread.
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 13:10:31 EDT 2000
  
  kiru,
  So to record KennyG I use a X brand mics and consoles and to record KadriGopalnath do I need to use a Y Brand or
  Are the mics and consoles made are based on the music that yor are going to record, , if so each studio can record only 1 type of music.
  
  I know that mics are made for different kinds of sounds, there is special mic for kick drum or special mic for female voice etc.
  
  Recording pop, jazz ,carnatic music or
  film music - is the recording process/equiments different based on the music can you clarify?
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 13:12:12 EDT 2000
  
  huh..dont I have some personal freedom ?? I am just expressing opinions in the context of a thread. I am not a machine with no emotion .
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 13:22:41 EDT 2000
  
  "Recording pop, jazz ,carnatic music or
  film music - is the recording process/equiments different based on the music can you clarify?"
  
  The recording process is different. The equipment need not be. One is more likely to use a tube mic preamp for Jazz rather than for a POP or techno. I dont think classical music lovers would enjoy the use of compressors/limiters in Haydn's Symphony or in Eine Kliene Nachtmusic. Still, the recording format for many Jazz/Classical music is analog tape (master). With 24bit/96KHzand DSD things are changing. The recording engineers for Classical/Jazz are of a different breed than the ones in the POP recording industry. BTW, the new album from Yanni is a studio recording and everybody is wondering 'what the heck'.
  
  Most POP albums rights are bought by bigger labels after the album has been produced. These albums are produced using equipment which are known for convenience and cost rather than 'high-fidelity'. For eg. The drums in album 'Men Down Under' (not very sure about the name) was recorded in somebody's kitchen.
  
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 13:35:12 EDT 2000
  
  http://www.jazzpromo.com/music-business/recording-jazz.html
  
  read this..
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 13:40:24 EDT 2000
  
  http://www.sonymusicstudios.com.au/MAINFRAME.HTML
  
  check this..also
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 13:45:42 EDT 2000
  
  fan..I am not saying limiting/compression is never used at all in Jazz/classical music. I am only talking about the likely case. In POP, compression/limiting is the norm. The reason being that you want your CD to sound the loudest (at a volume setting) and to say at that level. This is being done so that the user does not lose interest in the song. After all POP music business is a multi-billion dollar business so every aspect of the music is studied/researched - starting from the skimpy clothes of the female singers on the CD cover :-)
  Please read Kavi Alexander's approach in www.waterlilyacoustics.com. His recording of the Philadelphia Orchestra won him the 'Recording of the month' in Stereophile magazine. Just two microphones thats it.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 15:17:32 EDT 2000
  
  Kiru,
  A small question...
  
  How does compression/limiting spoil the quality of the song?
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 16:20:48 EDT 2000
  
  One doubt:
  Other day I was hearing the song "amma amma vandhaindha singakutti", I was able to hear scores balanced so perfectly,
  It sounded more to me that it is 24/36 channel recording, I belive my ears I am 100% sure on this and the best part there were no 24 track during that period.
  
  How did they do ?(one way 8/8/8 or 16/16 very painful to sync), can someone close to IR check this, or some one in AVM studio will know.
  Did this song have 24 tracks!...?
  
  
  
  kiru!....
  compression, imho often enhances,
  
  I often use compression for vocals, bass , bass needs to be recorded in a proper manner.,bass often does not come good without a compressor.
  Recording bass...how does arr able get the thump in bass!...often he uses a fretless bass? how.
  I know a trick...
  basically electric bass is often recorded directly from the guitar amp to the console, but I feel arr uses a bass amp that goes to a speaker, then he records the output from the speaker, i think that is the reason he gets great thump in bass.
  Any comment on this ?
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 17:23:50 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth..I am not sure whether having a speaker for a bass guitar is going to be helpful. If you do it make sure you have a room big enough (to avoid reflections). Why cant you just record it with a high level ?
  It is also possible that the song is equalized in such way. Many songs are equalized this way (50-100Hz boost) because many people do not have speakers which are capable of producing below 60 or 50 Hz. One of the popular speaker builders (Vandersteen) does not believe in monitor/bookshelf speakers at all. Without bass it is not music, according to him.
  (Trend, did you find out what compression/limiting is ? It will then answer your question).
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 17:29:54 EDT 2000
  
  More specifics than what I could write from the top of my head -
  http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/mar99/articles/recordingbass.htm
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Mon Oct 23 17:40:45 EDT 2000
  
  The link Kiru gave is Sound on Sound a music
  magazine from U.K. with amazing archives of
  articles ranging from review of latest
  synths and recording equipment to detailed
  articles and tips on "recording techniques"
  "sound synthesis" and also on how pop hits
  were planned and recorded. It is a real treasure.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 17:43:39 EDT 2000
  
  kiru,
  
  Recording in a studio gives no relectins, it is acosticaly treated , high level ? more volume ?,
  The compressor/limiters are used to make sure the levels dont overflow, usually sounds dont exceed 0db. I dont get you here...
  
  I was telling the about "thumping", bass has the lowest frequency instrument next to bass drum. So when playing bass the "weight" should be felt in output, not just the note hold.
  
  Take "kanalane",
  you will feel weight in the bass , it fills in lots of space., (my old specturm theory:)
  
  I totally agree with "Vandersteen", bass adds weight and beauty to the score, even a string section without a double bass score sounds empty.
  take the bgm scores of ir in "nayagan", the brass /string sections has couple of good bass arrangment. It gets its weight from double bass/cell scores only.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Mon Oct 23 17:44:31 EDT 2000
  
  EQ (equalization) can really clarify the
  mix. Personal experience. After mixing
  "udayamagum velaiyil", I mixed a song
  called "That's when I remember you",
  where I equalized the tracks.
  
  basically, each instrument is allocated a
  frequency window and other components are
  filtered out. By making sure the frequency
  windows are nonoverlapping, the instruments
  dont mush each other.
  
  Anyone interested I can provide a link to the
  songs and can write a little about the
  equalization.
  
  
• From: nvd (@ 161.142.78.85) on: Mon Oct 23 22:07:53 EDT 2000
  
  RJay-ji, please give me more knowledge on EQ. I am damn interested.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 24 10:46:24 EDT 2000
  
  BTW, I was watching an old movie, thulAbhAram, yesterday. Amazing songs. I felt even the recording was good. This shows, if done right, even old technology can do the trick (remember those mono Pink Floyd albums).
  I recently bought a book on recording. Its an old edition (1980s). But the principles are still the same. It is a must read.
  Some basics I can think of are -
  1) Freq spectrum/range of an instrument
  2) Dynamic range - how low-high the volume can go.
  3) Level matching - making sure the output levels of mic preamps and the gain on the input are set according so that volume is the same at a specific point for all instruments.
  4) Freq response of a mic
  5) Pick-up pattern of a mic
  
  And stuff like that ..
  Fan..if you give me an mp3 of your mix ..I will see what I can do it by equalizing it using some simple software that I have.
  
  Anyways, we are digressing from the topic. I just wanted to establish the fact that the recording techniques used for POP is not the 'be all and end all' of recording.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 24 10:47:57 EDT 2000
  
  (Fan..I am sure you can equalize it yourself ..probably with better hardware/software. but I was just going to do it for demo purposes here. Thats why I offered)
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Oct 24 11:49:20 EDT 2000
  
  kiru,
  You can download "warriors" from http://www.mp3.com/jsri
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ 208.51.40.112) on: Tue Oct 24 11:50:10 EDT 2000
  
  nvd, I will try to create a separate thread for
  equalisation techniques, once I find time.
  
  kiru, just wanted to clarify. equalization works wonders before
  mixing. But once tracks are mixed together,
  the damage is already done, equalization and
  compression can only work with the overall
  frequency response and cannot clarify a muddy
  mix. To get a clear mix, each instrumental or
  voice track has to be equalized (frequency filtered) separately and then they should be
  mixed.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Tue Oct 24 12:21:39 EDT 2000
  
  rjay ..thats a good clarification. But we should not underestimate the power of equalization/other effects on the stereo mix (as part of the mastering process). We can change the tonal characteristics and little bit of response but cannot boost say the bass guitar to such 'thumping levels'.
  
  

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