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why is Deva/MSV songs are more easy listening than IR?

Topic started by other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on Tue Apr 29 10:26:31 EDT 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Ok.let me first clear up that it is not a comparison between the MD's.I feel some of the melodies of Deva and MSV are very easy listening and very pleasing than most of IR's melodies.
like
1)Koovura kuilu sevalla pathu padikkuthu pattu
film:sollaiyamma
2)priya priya priya
film:kattabomman
3)padaithaney brahma devan 16 vayathu kolam
film:??
4)muthu maniye, muzhu nilavey
film:samundi
what is the reason.
1)Is it because IR is too structured
2)Is it because SPB/SJ have a free hand with these MD's and they give there best..

can someone explain this technically

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Prabhu (@ 203.124.130.219) on: Thu May 1 11:31:21 EDT 2003
  
  other_side: nice introspective topic, hope folks here will be mature enough to see the finer points instead of reacting in triggerhappy fashion.
  
  Someone suggested in some thread(prob pennathur), that IR structures the vocals around the orchestration. Does seem likely, since in most of his preludes/interludes itself, you sort of get the theme/mood for the vocal section that follows. And since the instrumental parts conveys the mood in such explicit fashion, you dont really feel like concentrating hard on the emotions/lyrics of the vocals.
  
  When I feel like focussing on a serious theme like sorrow/lullaby, I go for songs from movies like Chinnathambi which had average orchestration. Most of IR's sad songs like Kanne Kalaimaane, Nilavu Thoongum neram, Thaalaatu mari ponathey, Paadava un padalai(pathos), Poguthe*2(kadalora kavithaigal) had the instrumentals very much toned down, so you feel like reflecting on how the singer emotes.
  
  For normal songs, the preludes/interludes say it all. Did we really concentrate on the vocals in Rakkamma when the roaring violins had already conveyed the mood in the beginning itself? Did the vocals sweep you off in Agaya Gangai, Ennulle??
  
  Deva couldnt match IR in orchestration, so thats the difference.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Thu May 1 12:41:08 EDT 2003
  
  prabhu,
  Thanks for the posting..This posting really changed the way i have been listening to songs.Iam more concerned about the orchestration and how it is playing along with the song now, thanks for the posting by kiru.
  
  But it is also sad that people just look at the topic, if it has a DEVA in it.come shout some slogans in support of IR.nobody is reading the posting or what has been discussed.they just come and post things blindly.i dont know how long people or gonna discuss the IR Vs others...
  
  I noticed few things.I might be completely wrong.i dont how to exactly put them in musical terms.But if it triggers some thing in you please do post it.
  
  1.I feel that the mettu in deva's melodies are more curvier, in the sense the small gaps in between the words are not present.i found one IR song "Enna samayalooo, ethurthu"
  from unnal mudiyum thambi "thenne then pandi meeney" in this style.but not many of his melodies are in that style
  
  2.The singer seems to go to big high's and lows within the song in deva's melodies.But lot of IR's melodies don't modulate that much.when they go to the highs they seem to go in steps and not as a curve.
  
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu May 1 14:20:05 EDT 2003
  
  Prabhu, good point about the orchestration..with MSV kannadhasan's lyrics were the highlight of the song..with IR, the orchestration surely competes for attention. other_side, IRs songs maintain the feel throughout in tune and orchestration. Even though, dEvA's tune may sound 'curvier', I am not sure he is good at maintaining the mood throughout. This is because IR composes with a certain 'strictness' and 'structure'. If he had chosen a rAgam, no other swaras are used. I do recognise what you are talking about, but it is only one aspect of a song. With IR, there is a certain sense of discipline in the orchestration, things like the tinkling of a triangle or a guitar pluck here or a flute trill there is used very subtlely and with taste. This sense of sophistication is missing in dEvA's songs. IR did not achieve this easily, he worked hard on learning carnatic, western classical, internalised them and got himself involved in the character to bring out the emotions in his compositions. Like they say, genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. This diligence is what is lacking in dEva. Re: paadava un padalai - Most of Mohan film songs are a good example of light classical or light classical fusion. This song has a very good bass line. Listen carefully with a headphone. And BTW, IR did not let his orchestration dominate the songs, the rhythm/bass guitar were kept at a very low level. Also, those days, the environment was very conservative and there were complaints about IR treating carnatic music with 'irreverance' (I think, they thought he was misusing or abusing). So IR had to walk a fine line and not introduce too much of his fusion tricks. As you have rightly observed, IR did these mainly for POP or rhythm songs (eg. pon maane kObam Eno) and used these technique cautiously in classical type songs. Even the instruments for melody based songs were traditional (tabla/mridhangam percussion etc eg. nilavE vaa in mouna ragam vs all other drums songs in that movie).
  
  The more and more you observe/listen to IR songs, I am pretty sure you will stop listening to dEva :) :)
  
  
• From: mythila (@ 137.237.13.20) on: Thu May 1 15:46:23 EDT 2003
  
  enna kiru, ippadi kadaisi linela 'Damaal'nu idiya thooki pottuteenga???Deva fans BP threshold thaandaporathu.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Thu May 1 16:02:50 EDT 2003
  
  ayyaoooo kiru deiyvame..... you are portraying a picture as if iam a big deva fan.... and iam up against IR...
  as i said before, iam trying hard to really understand why i find some melodies more pleasing..
  
  But you are right.Deva's song dont keep the feeling all thorugh out the song.And i think the idea of not introducing other swaras into the raagam also plays a major part.
  
  As i said before iam trying to listen to songs more carefully now, keeping in mind the instruments playing along, the harmony etc.And I was hearing to "andhi mazhai" from raaja paarvai. and my god......."It was mind boogling", the way the music flows with the song.
  
  Another song... was "Enn inniya poon nilave"
  Beautiful song.... The cathedral choir like vocal harmonies, just amazing.....
  "Thara tha thaa thaa thara thaaa....."
  but i think that was a over kill for that song...
  
  coming back to deva :)
  i also noticed another thing...
  all the singers delibrately lower there pitch and soften themselves in deva's melodies.
  
  
  
• From: Comments (@ 172.160.130.113) on: Fri May 2 00:22:31 EDT 2003
  
  In the early 90's, when Deva was slowly gaining a foothold I also used to think that his songs were easy to listen to. But I am surprised IR is being used for comparison instead of ARR.
  
  When ARR arrived I used to feel that his music simply didn't have that natural flow/feel (I am not aware of musical terms). I used to feel that even Deva, Sirpy, S. A. Rajkumar were better than ARR in this regard. One song I can think of that illustrates this: Dum Dumukku Dum song in AlaiPayuthe (during a marriage). It took me a few albums to get used to his style. It seemed to me that ARR's music had a better flow after his first few albums. Maybe someone with music knowledge could shed some light on this.
  
  Before anyone thinks I am anti-ARR: I am not. I love most of his albums.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: ambleen (@ 61.8.210.74) on: Fri May 2 02:38:56 EDT 2003
  
  Believe me this guy is just a lay man trying very hard to get into film music business for the last 12yrs or so. He only sees it as a business and nothing more. Not worth to talk abt such person as far as film music is concerned.
  
  
• From: pennathur (@ 12.46.179.254) on: Thu May 8 17:27:30 EDT 2003
  
  IR to a large extent stays within popular melodic lines as his predecessors have. He has used a lot of good orchestration with the lyrics sometimes sounding secondary but never drowned out by the music. But the combination of mettu and lyrics of course is best in the pre-IR days; Vali/Kaviarasar and friends teamed up with MSV/TKR and friends. There are certain songs which when you listen to today are so lyrical with azhuttam aazham. Eg. listen to "Silar sirippar silar azhuvar" everytime when TMS says sirippar and azhuvar; the melody and lyrics are glued together. This is because of the strong Carnatic base that pre-IR composers have used. IR's songs vary tremendously in quality for these reasons. When it is in a choral mode - like "Anjali, Anjali, Anjali.." it is clearly Western with simple highs and lows. But in Puduppud ArthangaL; every song is a gem with the glued lyric+mettu feel; or VaLLi VarapporaL.
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Fri May 9 11:10:01 EDT 2003
  
  pennathaur,
  thanxs for reminding "pudhu pudhu arthangal". Yes it does has lyric+mettu feel."nan errikari melu irunthu" from chinna thayi is also that kind of song.
  http://www.newtfmpage.com/cgi-bin/stream.pl?url=http://www.dhool.com/sotd/naanerikkarai.rm
  
  I think its just not MSV or deva but lot of other MD's have also been successful in bringing the inert melody within the lyrics.
  
  1.Maragathamni in azhagan
  2.V. S. Narasimhan in achamillai achamillai
  
  "Neerr nanecha adai illam
  nee puzhinja neer vadiyummm
  Aitha magan , Nan puzhinja
  athanaiyummm Then vadiyum"
  
  3.S.P.B in sigaram
  4.ram laxman
  i feel like banging my head on the wall when ever i listen to the Orchestration or bgm's in HAHK.The success of the songs where all on the
  Melody, lyrics and the easy feel it gives.
  
  But toning down the music and not doing many orchestral decoration, and letting the lyrics as the main focus means that there is not much to do
  for the composer.But IR being a great composer, he makes us feel his mark every where in the song.For him the focus is more on the music , rather than on the lyrics.There are songs where you feel there is literal competition between the composer and the singer for the space.you can hear the small tinkling of triangles in between words and a flute or a guitar starting
  from where the singer stops during the end of the line and ending every line.when there are these kinds of small orchestral decoration in the
  songs.The singer is restricted not to overstep into the composers domain.
  
  we have heard from lot's of new singers that when you sing for the Maestro you are supposed to stick to what has been told to you and no
  improvising. Off course Dr.SPB and S.janaki are exceptions but there are also songs where even they are restricted.but when these singers start
  singing for other Music Md's like deva, they seem to find lot of spaces in the songs where they can add more feel to the words.
  
  There is a great beauty in all the songs of the maestro, whether it is the orchestrations, keeping the feel all through out the song,the disciple of sticking to the raaga.But there is another beauty in not sticking to any rules, just meandering on the flow of sweet words.
  
  "koodi asainthathummm..humm
  kaatru vanthathaaa...
  kaatru vanthathummm
  koodi asainthathaaaa.."
  
  There is nothing in this song except for the natural beauty of the words and the inert melody within them.The small humming, the small scilence does add a lot of beauty to the song. :)
  
  The maestro has done all kinds of styles.So he has also done lot of songs with more importance to lyrics and melody.Hope someone will list those songs which were very easy to listen.But he has not been very consistent. But again that is only one aspect of a song.He made his mark as a composer in all the songs with all the other aspects.
  
  References
  1.Mr kiru's posting :o)
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Fri May 9 13:13:06 EDT 2003
  
  pennathur says, 'strong carnatic base used by MDs prior to IR'. Other_side you also mention the importance of lyrics+mention. These things are fine but in a popular music medium like film music this alone will not last long. This is the reason IR tried various styles. Other wise, he would not had this longevity. Still his songs had a very strong 'indian' feel to them. Again this became a baggage when the economy and society opened up and he lost his #1 commercial spot.
  
  In recent movies like azhagi, kaasi ..the stress is back on melodies, so that other MDs can concentrate on popular numbers.
  un kuththama ..en kuthama in azhagi to me has equal or more emotional/lyrical impact than 'unnai cholli kuRRamillai, ennai cholli kuRRamillai' (even though I would have preferred 'proper' tamizh than the colloquial one in azhagi).
  IR also has now evolved a new 'fusion' style for melodies which intricately binds the melody and orchestration together..Songs in this genre are 'niRam piriththu pArthEn' in time, enna solli paaduvathO in en mana vaanil etc. Check out these and see whether you like them.
  
  (other_side, I think you meant 'innate' instead of 'inert')
  
  
• From: other_side (@ 209.166.128.18) on: Fri May 9 17:54:17 EDT 2003
  
  yes kiru..... that's is what i meant.... :)
  thanxs for the correction
  
  
• From: double side (@ 128.148.68.110) on: Fri May 9 20:15:44 EDT 2003
  
  Haaa Haaa
  
  MSV and DEVA both are no more in the field now no one bother about them.
  
  Go and buy all the MSV and the XEROX DEVA cassete.
  
  Do pooja to those cassets daily to prove your stupidness.
  
  
• From: Ramesh (@ 64.246.46.52) on: Sat May 10 04:00:41 EDT 2003
  
  otherside,
  
  This is totally unimaginable. The very topic.
  
  

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