Maestro Ilaiyaraja New Albums 2011 - Hello Jaihind / Sri Rama Rajyam

[V_S]

Thanks Aravind. Just now listened to this song, brilliant song by ARR and great singing by Shreya as usual!

[raagas]

Ridiculous accusation. If you care to see Raaja's "Making of Thiruvaasagam" episodes, he clearly explains that loops are huge "time and money savers" for today's music production.
He explains that "though loop usage" is inevitable, music composers should use their imagination to "hide it" and amalgamate it well in their creations. He has never said "NO LOOPS" at all. He lashes out only on "ONLY LOOPS" music composers - whom according to him are just pretenders competing with the genuine composers in the market today, standing on the notes composed by some one else. He reiterates this in the BBC interview as well.
The loops used in PS are minimal and are hidden away well .

Jaiganes,

Fair enough. Let me put forth my thoughts outside the context of Ponnar Shankar because it is generic. I cant recall IR calling loops as time & money savers, but i remember one video on youtube where IR demonstrated a loop rhythm generated by a synthesizer and questioned or ranted about how this can be called as composer's creation. I am unable to locate the exact video that I saw originally but I found a video in which this interview is being captured (on tv channel): Please note that I never questioned his claim or opinion. He is right and I am with him till there. I cannot understand tamil, but from whatever little I understand I think IR is expressing his displeasure over the usage of preset loops, by modern generation composers.

Now, coming to ONLY LOOPS argument. From what I understand, you mean that IR wants composers to work on the loops creatively and experiment in creating new loops, instead of using 'off the shelf' loops that are available for few US$. Right? Or is IR OK with "off the shelf usage" too? If he is ok with it, then please skip all the thoughts I am writing below. because if he is OK with preset loops, then probably he is complaining about the "melody" and that is a different sphere altogether. But the video above seems to be about preset loops. And my thoughts are totally about his complaints about loops and usage.

Now, I have listened to a handful of Ilaiyaraaja songs (that came in the period 1998-2004) in which "off the shelf" loops are used directly, without any modifications. I cant recall each and every song but I remember me springing out of my office chair, while listening to some song (during my work hours) that I never heard before. I remember exclaiming myself - "But this loop is exactly same as the one in that song by that composer X". A very quick example I can give is "Sutraadha Bhoomi" from Nilave Mugam Kattu - Particularly the charanams. It is a classic example I think. Fantastic song no doubt and I enjoy it myself. and i dont bother about the loop, qualitatively. But objectively, I didnt expect IR to use a preset (& very famous) loop directly. Next time, I will remember to post my similar findings here on the hub, when I listen to something like that but trust me there are atleast 8-9 songs that spooked me totally. So... i often continue to wonder - why succumb to loops? and why complain?

About loops in general: There are a billion loops out there in the market. And if few hundreds of them are already used (by various composers), we are familiar with them. But there are lot of loops unused that every composer is using today. So, a new loop doesnt necessarily mean that it is a creatively-reworked one. It also doesnt mean that it is not a creatively reworked one. It is just that we have no way of knowing if the loops are preset or customised (by composer). All we music buffs can know is just that if something is a loop or not. and with the progress of technology these days, I am afraid we cannot even know that. This is exactly the reason why I have come to terms with the usage of loops - because it has been in practice since 80s (in western pop.. and indian film music embraced it since 90s) and the lines between loops and acoustic sounds & customised synth sounds are blurring day by day.

And lastly, "hidden away well" is a subjective point. for we laymen, it is hidden because we are not exposed to that loop before and for another small time composer who has access to a synth bank with that loop, it could be familiar. The only way IR can avoid all this is by using the real instruments in organic way (with minute human errors being audible or generating the feel that we get when we are in a live concert of say, Tabla for example). But thats not the order of the day. Fair enough. Use loops... like other composers do. But once using - whats the point in "fastfood" talk?

I didnt/dont intend to offend anyone's views. Just put my thoughts/observations - which do not come in the way of my respect for Raaja or his work (despite the issues I have with him).

[raagas]

I completely agree with suresh and others here - PS belongs to Shreya Ghoshal, after Ilaiyaraaja.

And this is the first time I am listening to a kunal Gunjawala song so many times in a day. I would rate Thedi Vantha higher than that erotic mood song in JaganMohini (no, it is not because of my bias towards Shreya, although i dont rule it out totally ). The guitars that come in the background during the lead lines (when she sings vekkapatta vekkapatta vekkapattaaaa) portions - KILLER. IR cant get more classically contemporary than this. Period!

[raagas]

Iniya Tamizh Putthandu Nal Vazhthukkal…(phew! i hope i got it right) to all the tamil based fans here..

[SVN]

Singer Chitra, who is in Dubai for an ARR-themed concert has tragically lost her only daughter Nandana aged 8. The little one apparently fell into the swimming pool of the villa that the family was staying at.

May The Almighty give Chitra and her family the strength and resolve to bear this irreparable loss!

[raj_musing]

Singer Chitra, who is in Dubai for an ARR-themed concert has tragically lost her only daughter Nandana aged 8. The little one apparently fell into the swimming pool of the villa that the family was staying at.

May The Almighty give Chitra and her family the strength and resolve to bear this irreparable loss!

Oh God!I read that news and got a shock!!! How can fate be so cruel??She had to wait for 15 yrs to get a daughter....May god give her strength to bear this!

[KV]

Iniya Tamizh Putthandu Nal Vazhthukkal…(phew! i hope i got it right) to all the tamil based fans here..

Chaala thanksu Raagas gaarandi! (don’t worry, you nailed it right!)

Hmm, I do agree with most of what you’ve said on this ‘loopy’ topic (which as though being loyal to the name, keeps looping back, resurfacing every now and then, doesn’t it?)

From what I understand, one of the reasons for this debate to persist here (doesn’t seem to happen in any of the other MD/music threads) is, I think, Raaja not adhering to the adage ‘practice what you preach’. He would lash out at the current music scene, spew his usual popcorn, fastfood accusations, but then go on to take a bit of it, himself. From the way I see it, this could be resulting from him being, in a state, what can be called as, ‘stuck in the middle’. Bear with me while I try and explain.

Phase 1:
Here is a guy who has worked for a good portion of his formative years (as assistant and instrumentalist) with ‘classic’ music directors – yesteryear masters, those who swore by the melodic content in any composition, whose songs took birth on the harmonium, then took form and came to life in live recording sessions, those who would turn to classical music (WCM/ICM) to try out different rhythm patters and ragams when in need of sounding new, and those who, when looking for ideas, sourced their inspiration (genuine cue-taking to blatant lifting) from works of others. Electronic keyboards/synthesizers did have a small role in the picture, but that was just limited to providing new ‘tones’ (not new ‘tunes’!). That’s as much ‘technically advanced’ as one could be then! There was just no substitute for talent and ability. You either got it right, or screwed up the scene. Nothing better to hone one’s skills than the compulsion to match set standards aint it!
Now, it shouldn’t be too difficult to surmise the impact of such an environment on an enthusiastic, aspiring composer in IR.

Phase 2:
The post-gurukulam phase. The guy, after taking in all the gyan that was on offer, his skills sharp as a razor edge, breaks into the scene with a bang. He is still mostly ‘old-school’ in the basics, too much of deviance in this, would be like disrespecting his gurus whom he holds in very high esteem. At the same time, he houses this demon of a talent within himself that wants to break all barriers and perceptions of music, and also an enthusiastic youngster who wants to embrace the ‘new’ to see if it could ‘enhance’ what there is currently. Hence he introduces fresh WCM/folk musical ingredients, new recording techniques, new instruments, equipments and all that jazz! Again, the basics don’t change, all these new aspects are built around the ‘old school core’.
‘New’ sounds (from poly-rhythm pads, synthesizers and other gizmos) there maybe, yet, every note (well, almost) is still his brain-child, something that he has conceived and brought out. Electronic music is only in its nascent stage, too little options in the offering and expensive too! Musical ideas need to be ‘created’, nothing comes free or easy. And you still need skilled guys playing the instruments.

Phase 3:
Its 90s and electronic music is spreading rapidly the world over. Pop music takes centre stage (and tastes first blood in the death of rock/metal).
You cant leave India far behind can you? Enter ARR. The whiz-kid rides the new wave and paves the way for its entry into Thamizh and Indian filim music. There is a bigger out-burst of newer styles and sounds (whoever ever heard the shrill of bottles breaking in a Thamizh song before that!).
Now, one significant difference I see here is that the new kid openly challenges the ‘old-school’ and plays around with the very basics (something that IR was quite cautious in retaining).
Melody is there, but the overall melodic content comes down a bit. There is an inflow of fresh instruments and skilled instrumentalists but fast, electronic-beat driven, pop music is slowly emerging the order of the day.
Maybe, somewhere inside, IR felt his faith in the old-school principles almost being ridiculed. (it’s this factor according to me, that could’ve hurt IR a bit, then, rather than the popularly alleged jealousy over ARR's rise).
Musically, IR still has his act and kit mostly intact, predominantly live sounds, poly rhythms, etc and a small portion of the raging pop sounds too.

Phase 4
Through the 90s and post 2000, advancement in ‘computers in music’ sees electronic music grow in leaps and bounds. Internet, softwares, loops, e-studios, etc are all now household names.
Every kid wants to use his computer and internet to become the next biggest thing, his gig to get to the I’ve-got-10000-hits-in-10mins-on-youtube and 124000-likes-on-facebook stardom.
You no longer need razor-sharp skills when you have cutting edge technology. You don’t need to stress your brain cells for musical ideas, relatively miniscule pressure on your laptop keyboard will fetch you a million ideas.
Talent, you ask? Isn’t my tone groovy enough?
Expertise? Didn’t you read the article on all-in-all home-studios in the latest PC-chip edition?
I want to sing but I can only croak like a frog. Volla! we’ve got a tuning plug!
South-Antarctican native strings? Sam#19882. Sad Violin solo? Sam#1222. Electric guitar lead with distortion? Sam#666.
Music in this phase is more about packaged presentation and less about musical creativity.

Now this is the phase where all of IR’s beliefs and principles seem as extinct as the dodo.
But if there’s one person who has been actively involved in Indian film music from Phase1 through Phase4, it’s got to be IR. He is like a bridge between the classic and the new-age/electronic era, where his foundations happen to be strongly built in the former. His mind still seems to be craving for this even as he operates today. Well then, why does he have to embrace all this new-age tools? This, I think, we cannot have a certain answer. It could be just be the plain comfort that comes as a bonus from this lazy approach. Or like he says, maybe it’s the quality and availability of instrumentalists (the lack of) that makes him opt for it. Yeah, we can point out several talents around, but we don’t really know what he’s looking for.
And this is my point, as to why he does not practice what he preaches in this regard.
When you’ve seen the film music world around you go through such a sea change (and maybe felt that you haven’t been able to do much to turn the tide), contradictions and ironies and sarcasms are bound to catch up on your tongue, sooner or later.

At the end of it all, it is only admiration, of the highest level, that I have for him, for his ability to keep his creative energy flowing through all this turbulence.

Back to Ponnar Shankar.

[V_S]

KV,
One of the best post in hub in recent times. Wonderful read.
Now from just about loops, you have treaded a big path in IR's music history, very good.
I agree word by word and IR is definitely 'stuck in the middle'. You have to express your frustrations on current trend, technologies, composers, but at the same time you need to compete with the current trend, you cannnot escape. What a difficult task!. I know every composer would have experienced such scenario, but for Ilaiyaraaja the difference he is seeing that too within 20 years is larger than the sea.
I don't blame him for such contradictory talks. If anyone other composer than IR is in such scenaraio, he would have peacefully retired by this time, quoting the current trend. Still he has energy, passion and belief, just like the same way he used to embrace both our indian and western classical form of music in his compositions, he is coping with the current trend without compromising on the roots he had developed over these years.

If he does not oblige to the current technologies, he would be discarded as outdated composer, on the other hand if he obliges there are still complaints that he has to go back to his old school, as this is not is forte, even if it is good. Just can't imagine how he got in the middle. Only I can feel sorry for him.

But one thing is for sure, whatever changes are happening is definitely not good for indian music, only good for music directors, producers who just see money out of it (IMHO).

[app_engine]

Very sad day today to know about Chithra's loss

[app_engine]

Fantastic post, KV!

Raja has coped with all kinds of professional hazards and can be given the championship in endurance!
(It's not a big deal to be in the business for 30-40 years when the changes are not drastic. OTOH, any top techie artist of 80's to be in the reckoning after globalization is definitely a test of endurance)

Obviously, unlike his top years when he set the trend, post 1997 he had been mostly a (reluctant) follower of the trend set by others. (Was in state-of-shock between 93&97 when one after other partners kept leaving him).

TbI was an exception but it was like an art movie (means not mainstream) and not affecting / affected by any trend.